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43 minutes ago, Jamie said:

How soft are your cars springs? Softer cars are notorious for making passengers sick. Try cranking your ride frequencies up to >1.3hz and getting your roll stiffness down to <1.5degrees per G. Motion sickness isnt completely understood but most humans are more sensitive to the low frequency movements lets say under 1.5hz. I know changing springs isnt super easy but you could use some spring rubbers to do a test (0 points)

I also agree with @riche30 that using these meds while racing isn't a great idea and that some cardio training helps. I suffer dizziness come winter every year and have found that going for a run makes me feel much better and that when I have more cardio in my life I feel way better I target 20 mins a go. I think my issue is vertigo from particle in my ears. I have found this treatment also to be effective 



One of the Mopar4life guys swore that having a blown helmet system cured his issues. I know that if I get motion sickness in a vehicle that getting some fresh air is helpful

Hi Jamie. Yes, our E36 is very softly sprung in the rear and the pitching of the thing could definitely be playing it's part. It's a bit of a waterbed and something we've already determined needs to be addressed. It has the blue H&Rs on it but needs something beyond what the stiffer red H&Rs offer while staying within the Spring diameter rules for class C.

 

Cabin venting was mentioned above. I'll be putting in a NACA duct and some hose to help that.

 

Thanks for the clip also. I don't know if I suffer vertigo or how/if it's different to general motion sickness. I guess it can't hurt to try it.

 

I'm looking for a cheap race kart to use around my property...just a few times a week might help me with the overall motions we'd experience on the track.

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6 hours ago, craig71188 said:

Can't add much more to what's been said other than one of our drivers suffers from this same problem.  He has found Dramamine works for him - BUT, only effectively if he has taken it before onset of any symptoms.  If he forgets, goes out and has symptoms, the effectiveness / shaking it is a struggle for the rest of the day.

 

I tried Dramamine last weekend at VIR. Took it a few hours before my stint. It did nothing other than make me very dry-mouthed for the next 6 hours...and yeah, the motion sickness symptoms persist for hours and kind of ruin the whole weekend.

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6 hours ago, riche30 said:

Just to follow up a bit on my story...

Battled motion sickness while driving for years.  One doctor refused to give me patches when he found out I was trying to drive with them.  Claimed he was an old army medic and he would never allow any of his helicopter pilots use a patch while in flight, too many side effects.  The cotton mouth, for me, was the worst.  Felt sick for two days while wearing my patches.

Ultimately though, after a few years of messing around with all of this I cam to the conclusion that my motion sickness in the car was more a cardio issue than a motion one.  Remember that time you went jogging and ran so much you nearly puked.  Same concept.  Hopping in the car and having your heart rate spike for so long your body starts to tell you to slow down.  Looking  back, the year I was in the gym working on me was also the year I had the best luck driving the car.

Interesting point on the cardio and general fitness. Our Peloton has been eyeballing me for the past 6months.

 

I'll talk to the doc about the patches. Would rather not use them if I can avoid it but maybe I'll get some to try incase the other methods/remedies don't work.

 

Thanks for the advice sir.

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On 12/6/2021 at 2:52 PM, theflyingferret said:

Hello folks. I wasn't sure where to put this, mods please relocate as necessary.

 

I'm looking to see if any other CCES drivers have conquered motion sickness caused when driving on track?

 

I seem to suffer with bad nausea and headaches after 4-5 laps at tracks with elevation changes...and ones I don't know so well. While I'm sure a lot of it is just due to a lack of track time at unfamiliar circuits I'm struggling to stay in the car long enough to get the track time.

 

I've focused on keeping my eyes up, pointed at distanced reference points. I don't think I'm going too far wrong there, lap times are pretty decent alongside my teammates'. I've tried non-drowsy dramamine, pressure point wrist bands...different foods and drinks before getting in the car. Nothing touches it and it's really beginning to be a problem for me. The nausea takes 2-3 hours to subside but the headaches stick around all day long and it becomes very difficult to refocus for the second stint. We don't have any exhaust leak issues as such, at least no more than any other car. It's not the loudest car out there....and my teammates don't have any issues.

 

While I do more research I thought I'd take a punt here that someone may have been through this and found an answer that works for them.

 

Any ideas are appreciated...

 

As you can see above different things work/do not work for different people.  Consider all solutions as everybody is affected in a different way, similarly as you note your teammates do not get sick from an exhaust least so there must not be one.  I would investigate that further due to the headache symptom, the leak may not be big enough to bug them but may be big enough to bug you, again the lasting headache is pointing to enough carbon monoxide to give you a headache.

 

I also tried the other solutions - types of food, wrist bands.  I ride my bike to work every day so I am reasonably fit, though nothing like when I was training at the Olympic level for an endurance event.  Worrisome is that motion sickness also gets worse with age.  Fresh air with a filter works for others as does a cool suit to maintain reasonable temperature.  I do notice the feeling sneaking in when I am stuck behind a rotary that burns both gas and oil on purpose and anyone else that is burning oil, I really try to not follow them closely.

 

Yes elevation changes, tight twisty tracks, new tracks, soft springs all aggravate it.  When going to a new track maybe sacrifice the first 10 laps to get your eyes used to where they need to look, just back it down 10-15%.  When at a new track your car movements will be the jerkiest on the first laps as you learn the track so take it easy and don't try to set your fastest lap on your first lap.  I can do Road America and COTA without any help while ORP I am done after 40 minutes without help, 80 minutes with help.  At the same track with help I can do 2 hours in our car but with the same help in @veris's car I am done at 90 minutes as he also has stiff springs but runs the sticky tires and aero so more G's, that led me to another solution, point 3 below.

 

Things that worked for me:

1. Dramamine.  Depending on the track works for me for ~1.5 hours.  Hate the dry mouth but even the non-drowsy makes me drowsy, sucks to be sleepy at 2 PM and just about to get in the car.  Hated the sleepiness all day.

2. Ear patch, works amazing, feels like my stomach has been surgically removed, no motion sickness whatsoever.  Hate the loss of short term memory and it affected me hugely.  First lap at turn 7 I know I should brake a little later.  Next lap I am thinking the same thing but can't remember where I hit the brakes on the last lap.  30 laps later I realize I have been thinking the same thing 30 times over but never remembering or accomplishing it.  Next lap I say I will repeat, "I hit the brakes at X, brake later" for the entire lap so I remember it.  Next lap I hit the brakes early and start repeating where I hit the brakes in my mind but by the time I get to turn 8 I say, "I hit the brakes at........ damnit I can't remember!".  So I gave up on trying to remember.

3. Gravol ginger.  Works very well for me, no side affects - awesome!  Then I get in Veris's car, crap starting to feel sick at 90 minutes due to the increased grip.  So I taped another pill to each knee and swallowed one an hour in, worked perfect, no motion sickness for the entire two hours.  Ginger is ticket for me!  Can also put a piece of raw ginger in your cheek, ginger candy, etc. for soothing but the concentration is nowhere near the pill.

4. Also experimenting with specific motion sickness exercises.  Basically moving your head and eyes quickly together side to side 30 seconds, up and down 30 seconds, up/down/side/side 30 seconds to build up tolerance to motion sickness.  Practice every day for two weeks before a race.  Within 15 seconds of the first exercise when not practiced I can notice the motion sickness feeling but it does seem to take longer into the second week.  You should try it to get motion sick and see if it brings on a headache as well to eliminate the carbon monoxide theory.

 

Good luck.

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2 hours ago, theflyingferret said:

Hi Jamie. Yes, our E36 is very softly sprung in the rear and the pitching of the thing could definitely be playing it's part. It's a bit of a waterbed and something we've already determined needs to be addressed. It has the blue H&Rs on it but needs something beyond what the stiffer red H&Rs offer while staying within the Spring diameter rules for class C.

 

I love these. Its my favorite suspension tool I cant believe I don't see them more often. Per a petition I submitted they are 0 points (See 4.3.2 under 0 point) image.png.74965e819cc911af30dd0406f72ccc2b.png


You could totally frack up your balance with them but they will greatly increase your spring stiffness and increase your ride frequency. It's also just a great tool to have for chassis setup. I can't buy enough of them. 



Maybe order two blacks (hard) and two reds(medium). Assuming your car understeers put the blacks in the front and the mediums in the rear. Car should be way stiffer which traditionally helps reduce motion sickness. 


 

Edited by Jamie
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Just random thoughts on the subject:

 

Do you know if the problem is from the motion causing vertigo or how your brain is processing the visual inputs?  If you drive a simulator or a solid video racing game, it might help you isolate what is causing the problem for you.    One of my coworkers could not use a racing simulator for road course (not a motion device).

 

I've definitely experienced vertigo - as it turned out mine was due to lack of sleep.  These episodes were preceded my ringing in the ears.  It's a long shot for you but couldn't hurt to be well rested to see if that helps.

 

Also I can attest to how not having cardio affects me - getting light headed real easy - but that didn't creep in until my 50's, and brisk walks keeps that demon away.  Oddly has not been a problem in the car, but rather after getting out.

 

I've definitely had to change my line as the exhaust from the car in front of me has occasionally been an issue, though in the short time it takes for this to hit it doesn't seem likely this is an issue for you.

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6 hours ago, theflyingferret said:

Interesting point on the cardio and general fitness. Our Peloton has been eyeballing me for the past 6months.

 

I'll talk to the doc about the patches. Would rather not use them if I can avoid it but maybe I'll get some to try incase the other methods/remedies don't work.

 

Thanks for the advice sir.

Do yourself a big favor and visit a doctor.  Let me know what his take is on "soft springs" in your car causing your problem.

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4 hours ago, DEE DEE said:

Do yourself a big favor and visit a doctor.  Let me know what his take is on "soft springs" in your car causing your problem.

 

As someone who is hypersensitive to what is going on with my body and surroundings I can tell you 100% a softly sprung car will bring on motion sickness much sooner than a stiffly sprung car.  Without ginger but stiff springs I could probably do 60 minutes on a flat tight course, softer springs I might get 30 minutes.  Add elevation change with blind corners then cut those times in half, so yeah I can see 5 laps and done, not the headache though.  That reminds me @theflyingferret if you are in a full street car with the windows up do you get the same speedy motion sickness but not the headache?  Chase down the cause of the headache.

 

Back in the height of my training 3+ hours/day I could tell what I had eaten not just that day but the day before.  Not feeling good in a workout, what did I eat that day?  All good, hmmm what did I have the day before?  Oh right had a pop or DQ Blizzard with lunch yesterday and that is why I feel crappy this evening.

 

Road America I pull in and say there is a leak in the brake system somewhere as the pedal felt slightly different.  They jack the car up and I press on the brake pedal, they say they don't see anything and get back out there.  I say keep looking and they finally see a drop of brake fluid has just formed at one of the fittings, the braided steel line was starting to fail at the crimp.  At The Ridge the brakes felt odd so I back out going into the next two turns, exiting the second turn I see out of the corner of my eye what looks like a 15 mm caliper bolt flying by the passenger window.  I pit and sure enough one of the 15 mm caliper bracket bolts is missing off the passenger caliper.

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On 12/10/2021 at 2:05 AM, Ron_e said:

 

As someone who is hypersensitive to what is going on with my body and surroundings I can tell you 100% a softly sprung car will bring on motion sickness much sooner than a stiffly sprung car.  Without ginger but stiff springs I could probably do 60 minutes on a flat tight course, softer springs I might get 30 minutes.  Add elevation change with blind corners then cut those times in half, so yeah I can see 5 laps and done, not the headache though.  That reminds me @theflyingferret if you are in a full street car with the windows up do you get the same speedy motion sickness but not the headache?  Chase down the cause of the headache.

 

Back in the height of my training 3+ hours/day I could tell what I had eaten not just that day but the day before.  Not feeling good in a workout, what did I eat that day?  All good, hmmm what did I have the day before?  Oh right had a pop or DQ Blizzard with lunch yesterday and that is why I feel crappy this evening.

 

Road America I pull in and say there is a leak in the brake system somewhere as the pedal felt slightly different.  They jack the car up and I press on the brake pedal, they say they don't see anything and get back out there.  I say keep looking and they finally see a drop of brake fluid has just formed at one of the fittings, the braided steel line was starting to fail at the crimp.  At The Ridge the brakes felt odd so I back out going into the next two turns, exiting the second turn I see out of the corner of my eye what looks like a 15 mm caliper bolt flying by the passenger window.  I pit and sure enough one of the 15 mm caliper bracket bolts is missing off the passenger caliper.

Ron, thanks for taking the time for such a detailed description of your experiences and what you've done to try and cure things.

 

I'm going to get the ear patches, but I'm not going to use them in my first stint at our next event. I'll try the ginger pills and see if some of the more "natural" remedies might help. I really do not like the idea of short term memory loss...that's sounds pretty serious.

 

Absolutely, some cars to follow are the worst and you just get a face full of toxic waste to breathe in. This is why I didn't put a cabin vent in our car before, I figured I'd just be making the situation worse...but I'll try not sit behind these cars for too long in the future.

 

I will add that if I go to a theme park with the kids and go on anything that swings or spins then I get the exact same symptoms; nausea and headache...so who knows if the carbon monoxide is a factor. It certainly won't be helping. I've not actually driven a street car on the track so I don't have a clean air basis for comparison!

 

Stiffer springs will be going on the car, I think there's little doubt that this exacerbates the issue.

 

There's all manner of scope for my diet and fitness to be improved. I concur on food types and general feeling of well being and health...even in the hours immediately after eating certain foods. I've read about people experimenting and keeping a food diary..."How did I feel one hour, two hours, 4 hours, a day after eating X".

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On 12/9/2021 at 5:01 PM, Jamie said:

 

I love these. Its my favorite suspension tool I cant believe I don't see them more often. Per a petition I submitted they are 0 points (See 4.3.2 under 0 point) image.png.74965e819cc911af30dd0406f72ccc2b.png


You could totally frack up your balance with them but they will greatly increase your spring stiffness and increase your ride frequency. It's also just a great tool to have for chassis setup. I can't buy enough of them. 



Maybe order two blacks (hard) and two reds(medium). Assuming your car understeers put the blacks in the front and the mediums in the rear. Car should be way stiffer which traditionally helps reduce motion sickness. 


 

 

Jamie, thanks for the pointer here. I will defo look into the the spring rubbers.

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8 hours ago, theflyingferret said:

I'm going to get the ear patches, but I'm not going to use them in my first stint at our next event. I'll try the ginger pills and see if some of the more "natural" remedies might help. I really do not like the idea of short term memory loss...that's sounds pretty serious.

 

I will add that if I go to a theme park with the kids and go on anything that swings or spins then I get the exact same symptoms; nausea and headache...so who knows if the carbon monoxide is a factor. It certainly won't be helping. I've not actually driven a street car on the track so I don't have a clean air basis for comparison!

 

Yes same for me at the amusement park, even the kiddie rides that I went on with my daughter when she was 5.  For the one that went 360 degrees I would pick a point to stare at, rotate my head until I couldn't anymore, then swing my head around quickly to pick the next point to stare at to avoid getting sick.

 

Sounds like the carbon monoxide may not be a factor but even a tiny bit could be hurting the situation.  

 

The memory loss with the patch is a stated side affect while using it.  Maybe for other people it is not as bad but I did not want to fool with it, even to race.  Before getting in the car I wanted to change the tach setting so I told Jeff not to tighten belts when I get in.  10 seconds later I tell him again, and again after 10 seconds, and again...  I could remember telling someone but I couldn't remember who.  After about the sixth time he said, "I ^%#^$( get it!".  It was only then that I thought maybe I was always saying it to Jeff... or maybe I had told 2-3 people, there was no way for me to know.  For me it was just a completely bizarre weekend because everybody relies on me to remember everything and suddenly I couldn't remember if I said "Hi" to you and I could spend the next hour saying it every 10 seconds till you yelled at me.

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Don't forget to run good shocks (dampers) to control the oscillations. I've heard it said that springs are for setting the ride height and frequency, bars are for setting the roll rate and handling balance, and shocks control the feedback to the driver.

 

I would think a soft but stable platform would be preferable to a stiff, bouncy one. 

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On 12/13/2021 at 7:12 PM, mender said:

Don't forget to run good shocks (dampers) to control the oscillations. I've heard it said that springs are for setting the ride height and frequency, bars are for setting the roll rate and handling balance, and shocks control the feedback to the driver.

 

I would think a soft but stable platform would be preferable to a stiff, bouncy one. 

We run Bilsteins...but I can explore other options. Sadly can't touch the bars, we'd get pulled over by the VPI cops.

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  • 4 months later...

I've started spinning myself around in an office chair with the wheels removed to try and treat my motion sickness. After 3 sessions I've gone from 3 minutes with some nausea at the end to being ok after 5 minutes, so it's definitely increasing my tolerance to spinning around in circles.

 

If this doesn't treat my sickness I may have to quit racing. Scopolamine keeps me from throwing up but I feel horrible when driving. At a track like Ozarks I simply didn't trust myself to drive well while nauseous.

 

My problem may have been caused by my brain associating exhaust smells with CO poisoning I got years ago, so it may not work. Unfortunately I only get sick in races, so I can't really test the efficacy of the treatment.

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9 minutes ago, Grant said:

I've started spinning myself around in an office chair with the wheels removed to try and treat my motion sickness. After 3 sessions I've gone from 3 minutes with some nausea at the end to being ok after 5 minutes, so it's definitely increasing my tolerance to spinning around in circles.

 

If this doesn't treat my sickness I may have to quit racing. Scopolamine keeps me from throwing up but I feel horrible when driving. At a track like Ozarks I simply didn't trust myself to drive well while nauseous.

 

My problem may have been caused by my brain associating exhaust smells with CO poisoning I got years ago, so it may not work. Unfortunately I only get sick in races, so I can't really test the efficacy of the treatment.

Dude, you looked like you felt miserable when you weren't in the car.  Yall wheeled the poop out of it.

 

I couldn't imagine being sick in the car.  

 

I hope you find something that works for you!

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2 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Dude, you looked like you felt miserable when you weren't in the car.  Yall wheeled the poop out of it.

 

Chuck wheeled it well on Sunday, I did not. At safer tracks I'd push harder while sick, but not at Ozarks.

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15 minutes ago, Grant said:

I've started spinning myself around in an office chair with the wheels removed to try and treat my motion sickness. After 3 sessions I've gone from 3 minutes with some nausea at the end to being ok after 5 minutes, so it's definitely increasing my tolerance to spinning around in circles.

 

If this doesn't treat my sickness I may have to quit racing. Scopolamine keeps me from throwing up but I feel horrible when driving. At a track like Ozarks I simply didn't trust myself to drive well while nauseous.

 

My problem may have been caused by my brain associating exhaust smells with CO poisoning I got years ago, so it may not work. Unfortunately I only get sick in races, so I can't really test the efficacy of the treatment.

Grant do you have the same issues @ the firm in the time trails in the vette? 

 

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3 minutes ago, jim161c said:

Grant do you have the same issues @ the firm in the time trails in the vette? 

I've maybe felt a bit of motion sickness here or there at track days and TTs at tracks like Road Atlanta, but I've never gotten nauseous outside of a ChampCar race. I don't think I ever got sick while karting but I was a lot younger back then. I think smells during double yellows is a lot of it.

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16 minutes ago, Grant said:

I've maybe felt a bit of motion sickness here or there at track days and TTs at tracks like Road Atlanta, but I've never gotten nauseous outside of a ChampCar race. I don't think I ever got sick while karting but I was a lot younger back then. I think smells during double yellows is a lot of it.

Maybe try a helmet that is sealed really well with a blower unit that is filtered. The fumes may be the issue as you surmise, especially since you have had CO poisoning in the past. 

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1 hour ago, jim161c said:

I had this issue and the first time it happened I thought it was something I ate. The next time, I definitely felt the earth shift about two feet to the left as I entered a corner.

 

Went to the doctor, he did a kind of reverse Epley maneuver while watching my eyes as I sat up, my eyes twitched hard and confirmed the issue. Did the exercises for about a week and havent had a problem since.

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2 hours ago, Grant said:

I've started spinning myself around in an office chair with the wheels removed to try and treat my motion sickness. After 3 sessions I've gone from 3 minutes with some nausea at the end to being ok after 5 minutes, so it's definitely increasing my tolerance to spinning around in circles.

 

If this doesn't treat my sickness I may have to quit racing. Scopolamine keeps me from throwing up but I feel horrible when driving. At a track like Ozarks I simply didn't trust myself to drive well while nauseous.

 

My problem may have been caused by my brain associating exhaust smells with CO poisoning I got years ago, so it may not work. Unfortunately I only get sick in races, so I can't really test the efficacy of the treatment.

 

If you only get sick in races I would target that.  What are you doing, feeling, eating different on race day that you are not on all other days?  Even something like race day only Gator-ade can be a cause.  Nervousness, worried about the car?  Stressed about beating/matching your teammate?  I would suggest talking to a sports psychologist and maybe some hypnosis as the "only at races" sounds like a mental cause if you can't duplicate the nauseous feeling with the same race rituals (food, sleep, etc) and lap time on a practice day at the same track.  Regardless of practice or race I get sick at about the same time so mine would be a physical issue.

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