petawawarace Posted December 21, 2021 Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 I’m well aware of the benefits of having a dry gas such as nitrogen in our tires. We used to late model race and would purge and use nitrogen in all of our tires. My only issue is having to pay for an extra bottle of nitrogen for a couple races a year. I have two bottles of argon that I use for my welders and could easily move one to my pit cart. Hell I could even incorporate my mig welder onto the pit cart and use the argon. Any reason I shouldn’t use argon in my tires? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted December 21, 2021 Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 It's expensive and you can adjust your tire pressures at the first pit stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 21 minutes ago, petawawarace said: Any reason I shouldn’t use argon in my tires? This is ChampCar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins Posted December 22, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 Are you controlling your tire pressures that specifically? I don’t even own a tire pressure gauge thats accurate enough for n2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 hour ago, enginerd said: This is ChampCar. This. But also, do it. Argon is significantly heavier than nitrogen. Heavier even than pure oxygen. And since air in primarily nitrogen and oxygen, by filling your tires with argon, you're making them heavier. You being slower is good for me. Also, late models "may" benefit in a noticeable way from nitrogen, but I sincerely doubt a typical champ tire with its significantly smaller internal volume would see any gain worth wasting the time/money/energy on. Taking a big crap before you get in the car will likely net you a more noticeable lap time increase. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Chris Huggins said: Are you controlling your tire pressures that specifically? I don’t even own a tire pressure gauge thats accurate enough for n2 Huh? Accuracy of the gauge doesn’t change. I’m surprised you guys are not running it. The advantage of nitrogen is that it doesn’t expand or contract as much as air (which has moisture present). So you can start much closer to your optimal pressures. We are running RS4s and have found 28-32psi to be the sweet spot. With regular air, we start off at 24psi (which is the minimum that Hankook recommends) but at our first stop we are up to 33-36psi and have to bleed off. With nitrogen we should be able to start at 26ish and not go higher than 30. With the late models it was all about the initial start not being on really low tires. With Champcar I’m more interested in not going above our target pressures. Also, it’s not an expense thing if I already have the bottle and regulator. It’s actually more convenient that a 12V shitty air compressor or having to have power to run a 120V one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 (edited) I could see N2 being advantageous at Daytona, when too-low of pressures can cause tire failure. Otherwise, who cares? Tires come up to temperature fairly quickly. I've varied pressures by +/- 4 psi in 2 psi increments over 5 sessions, and the lap time differences aren't that great. Lower pressures require advancing steering inputs, and if the driver can't adapt then they will be slower. When we ran RS4s we'd start at 20-22 psi (depending on the tire) for a 28f/26r psi target. Edited December 22, 2021 by Grant 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 Also, the weight difference would need to be measured in grams…..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Ian said: But also, do it. Argon is significantly heavier than nitrogen. Heavier even than pure oxygen. And since air in primarily nitrogen and oxygen, by filling your tires with argon, you're making them heavier. Yeah, and he says he's putting like 30 pounds in each tire. That's a lot of weight. However. If you're already paying for the Ar tank, the cost difference in gas is nil. So if you have a big tank of it kicking around, no reason not to use it. I'm sure it will work fine. And yes, it does help with cold pressures that make you worry about de-beading a tire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, MMiskoe said: Yeah, and he says he's putting like 30 pounds in each tire. That's a lot of weight. However. If you're already paying for the Ar tank, the cost difference in gas is nil. So if you have a big tank of it kicking around, no reason not to use it. I'm sure it will work fine. And yes, it does help with cold pressures that make you worry about de-beading a tire. lol 30 pounds. But yeah, my cost for the argon would be zero, but a rental tank for nitrogen would be a couple hundred bucks a year. I’m just not aware of anyone using argon for tires so thought I’d ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, petawawarace said: We are running RS4s and have found 28-32psi to be the sweet spot. With regular air, we start off at 24psi (which is the minimum that Hankook recommends) but at our first stop we are up to 33-36psi and have to bleed off. With nitrogen we should be able to start at 26ish and not go higher than 30. Go test it. I bet a case of beer that air and nitrogen are closer in cold/hot pressure rise than you think. 1 minute ago, petawawarace said: lol 30 pounds. But yeah, my cost for the argon would be zero, but a rental tank for nitrogen would be a couple hundred bucks a year. I’m just not aware of anyone using argon for tires so thought I’d ask. How is your argon free?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, enginerd said: Go test it. I bet a case of beer that air and nitrogen are closer in cold/hot pressure rise than you think. How is your argon free?? Hahaha. I really want to take this bet, but how can you know what I think? I know from experience that it’s around 1/2 the expansion rate of regular air. But that depends on the moisture content. Moisture is the largest factor in pressure expansion. Regular air has quite a bit of moisture present. But that will vary. New Mexico for example will likely not have much moisture. Florida will. My argon isn’t “free”. But it’s on hand for my business, so if a little ends up in my race tires….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 I’ve also thought about running tire bleeders as they are legal now, but if you got into a spot where you needed to push hard for a few laps, you could lose too much pressure and hurt the rest of the race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimS Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 As air is 70% or more comprised of nitrogen. The difference is slight and the expansion rate over the limited temp range is small. The component in air and nitrogen to certain extent is moisture/water. If you “air” is dry then it will expand very similarly to “dry” nitrogen. The difficult task with tires is filling them with 100% nitrogen and not introducing moisture into tire. Run your air compressor tank at highest pressure your tank is rated for, drain the tank regularly, use a moisture filter on the air hose while filling tires. Most tires I have used nitrogen cylinders for tires and pit work was because of rules requiring any tool in the cold put to be non sparking. So no battery impact guns or air compressors. So nitrogen cylinders and air tools. If you have argon and want to waste it on tires knock yourself out. It won’t hurt or help 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted December 23, 2021 Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 If for nothing else, the nitrogen (or argon) will be more consistent than air. PV=nRT R changes, mostly based on moisture content of the air which may or may not be the same from fill to fill. Although I don't have a lot of experience running nitrogen in Champ type tires (or argon) I've done it in R-compound DOT tires and in kart tires. It is far more consistent and you will start out closer to where you want to be. Less risk of de-beading a tire. Less chance of it way over-shooting your target pressure. If I had bottles of it already in the shop, the tires would be filled with it. Hands down. When we did 3+ tire changes per race we had nitrogen around (to run wheel guns) and it was very handy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted December 23, 2021 Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 On 12/21/2021 at 10:03 PM, petawawarace said: I’ve also thought about running tire bleeders as they are legal now, but if you got into a spot where you needed to push hard for a few laps, you could lose too much pressure and hurt the rest of the race. Tire bleeders are legal now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 I submitted a tech desk question Sept/2020 about them. The response was that there was currently a 2x rule on the cost of wheels and if the bleeders fit within that cost (including the actual wheel cost) that they would be fine. Since wheels are no longer 2x, they should be legal right? I just went to look, and the BCCR actually doesn't stat anything about wheels at all. They are not listed on the point free list either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted December 23, 2021 Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, petawawarace said: I submitted a tech desk question Sept/2020 about them. The response was that there was currently a 2x rule on the cost of wheels and if the bleeders fit within that cost (including the actual wheel cost) that they would be fine. Since wheels are no longer 2x, they should be legal right? I just went to look, and the BCCR actually doesn't stat anything about wheels at all. They are not listed on the point free list either. The answer should of simply been "No Tire Bleeders" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 32 minutes ago, hotrod said: The answer should of simply been "No Tire Bleeders" Why? Has there ever been on of the infamous informal rules against them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted December 23, 2021 Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, petawawarace said: Why? Has there ever been on of the infamous informal rules against them? They are expensive, they are unreliable, they take some time to set up and require regular maintenance. IndyCar & NASCAR don't use them ChampCar shouldn't. About the only ones that use them with success is dirt sprint cars & midgets & they only race for a short time. If you want to increase your tire pressure for track conditions you have to change the bleeder valve settings. We went through this with the local pavement Midgets more of them failed or were used improperly than they did good. Better off to control tire pressures with Nitrogen. Quote from Richard Buck IndyCar & NASCAR Crew Chief: "In regard to the tire bleeders, we work our partner Goodyear and with our teams and at this point, I personally don't know if there are any bleeders out there at the level that these cars would require," Buck told Popular Speed on Friday afternoon. "I know there are other forms of motorsports like dirt car racing and sprint car racing that I've seen before and (those valves) were very touchy and non-repeatable. If they fail, it was a catastrophic failure of the system, so I don't think there is a system that is out there today." Furthermore, Buck is content without having bleeder valves because it's the same and fair for everyone in the garage. "It allows teams to adjust on the tires," Buck continued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 Ok so it’s your opinion. Regardless, that’s not what I was told. I’ll likely not use them for the reliability and issues I’ve mentioned before. Definitely will run Nitrogen/Argon tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted December 23, 2021 Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 o·pin·ion noun a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. ex·pe·ri·ence noun practical contact with and observation of facts or events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted December 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 35 minutes ago, hotrod said: o·pin·ion noun a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. ex·pe·ri·ence noun practical contact with and observation of facts or events. I meant it’s your opinion that they should have said they are not allowed. I agree with most of what you said, but it’s not in the rule book or the tech desk that’s they are illegal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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