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Looking at possible build with an engine swap.

 Read all the swap information several times but just so I am clear you must use the highest starting point VPI from that generation car then the points are added with a minimum of 50 .

 My question is that correct and is that rule applied across the board to all cars or selectively manipulated in the swap calculator ?

 

4.5.7. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation (i.e., – E30s would use the M20B25 as the starting point)

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Its applied to all cars unless the platform has a car with a turbo.

 

Notable exceptions

 

944

FC rx7

Mini Cooper

MR2

 

Cars that get totally screwed by this rule

4th gen integra (Type R is highest value)

5th gen civic (99-00 Si)

1st gen Focus (SVT)

 

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9 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

Its applied to all cars unless the platform has a car with a turbo.

 

Notable exceptions

 

944

FC rx7

Mini Cooper

MR2

 

Cars that get totally screwed by this rule

4th gen integra (Type R is highest value)

5th gen civic (99-00 Si)

1st gen Focus (SVT)

 

Chris - The following seems to be an exception as well- 

 

BMW E30 (M20B25) 450 450 450 450 450 450 450 450

BMW E30 (M20B27) 375 375 375 375 

 

Note - the externals of the 2.5 and 2.7 are identical from what I have seen to the layman's eyes. I would think if you add a cam and other go fast internal engine parts under the valve cover of a 2.7 it will perform as well as a 2.5 yet it is 75 points lower. I know you are a BMW expert so would love your opinions on this observation. Again - I am no expert and not looking to stir the pot, just curios as to your opinion. 

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 Thanks Chis for the quick response as you are probably the best to answer these type questions.

So while we have you , a couple questions 

1-Is there a list showing all exceptions so it is clear to everyone instead of using tribal knowledge ?

2-Yes the Integra gets screwed if the Type R is the one used . There were so few of them and no one in their right mind would use one for Champcar.

 

3-Since you mentioned the 944 let me ask this question because I have always had and love 944s so that car is in consideration. Looks like the swap VPI that is used in the calculator is based on the 944S (450 points) as opposed to the 944S2 ( 520 points), was that intentional or an oversight ? The S2 is the highest VPi for a normally aspirated car from  that generation if you exclude the 236hp 575 point 968 which is essentially a 944. It appears the swap VPI on a 944 for some reason was not picked from "the highest valued model form the generation " but the next to the lowest value from the generation and no points ( just the 50 point minimum) added at all for the additional 61hp added if you swap in a 3.0L S2 motor.

 

 The reason I ask is it is hard to ignore the performance of the 944 in the series so as we consider a new car that has to be a consideration ( we already have a 944 ) and the swap seems very generous considering the fuel capacity / performance and we would hate to go down that path only to see that loop hole closed .

 

 So for clarification we can swap the standard 147 hp 2.5L in our 1986 944 for a 3.0L 208hp  motor and start with the VPI of a 944s of only 450 pints and only add the 50 point minimum and no additional points for the added 61hp ? Yes I read all the information and plugged the information into the calculator but still can't believe this is allowed.

 If this is the case and there are no plans to close the loop hole we are thinking we may abandon our BMW after we build a 944. We had assumed the 944 would have to start with the VPI of the highest normally aspirated car which is a 944S2 ( 520) .

 

Now we just have the seemingly impossible task of doing the swap under the $2,500 maximum.

 

Edited by paulstreet
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49 minutes ago, jim161c said:

Chris - The following seems to be an exception as well- 

 

BMW E30 (M20B25) 450 450 450 450 450 450 450 450

BMW E30 (M20B27) 375 375 375 375 

 

Note - the externals of the 2.5 and 2.7 are identical from what I have seen to the layman's eyes. I would think if you add a cam and other go fast internal engine parts under the valve cover of a 2.7 it will perform as well as a 2.5 yet it is 75 points lower. I know you are a BMW expert so would love your opinions on this observation. Again - I am no expert and not looking to stir the pot, just curios as to your opinion. 

 

The rule coming into play here only matters if you are swapping an engine.


If you take a lower valued car from a platform - A m10 E30 or a M20B27 E30 and modify it, you just have to pay the modificaiton points - Cam or Intake or what not.  Its not a "swap"

 

Now if you put a K24 into it or a M54, the swap starts at 450 from the M20B25 value. 

 

The rule was specifically designed to stop people using the M20B27 value for swapped cars.  Back in 2013 era this "loophole" was found with people using M50 swapped E30's at lower starting value than a M20B25 car, and this rule was written to close it.

 

FWIW the B27 externals are different to those familiar with the marque.

 

20 minutes ago, paulstreet said:

 Thanks Chis for the quick response as you are probably the best to answer these type questions.

So while we have you , a couple questions 

1-Is there a list showing all exceptions so it is clear to everyone instead of using tribal knowledge ?

2-Yes the Integra gets screwed if the Type R is the one used . There were so few of them and no one in their right mind would use one for Champcar.

 

3-Since you mentioned the 944 let me ask this question because I have always had and love 944s so that car is in consideration. Looks like the swap VPI that is used in the calculator is based on the 944S (450 points) as opposed to the 944S2 ( 520 points), was that intentional or an oversight ? The S2 is the highest VPi for a normally aspirated car from  that generation if you exclude the 236hp 575 point 968 which is essentially a 944. It appears the swap VPI on a 944 for some reason was not picked from "the highest valued model form the generation " but the next to the lowest value from the generation and no points ( just the 50 point minimum) added at all for the additional 61hp added if you swap in a 3.0L S2 motor.

 

 The reason I ask is it is hard to ignore the performance of the 944 in the series so as we consider a new car that has to be a consideration ( we already have a 944 ) and the swap seems very generous considering the fuel capacity / performance and we would hate to go down that path only to see that loop hole closed .

 

 So for clarification we can swap the standard 147 hp 2.5L in our 1986 944 for a 3.0L 208hp  motor and start with the VPI of a 944s of only 450 pints and only add the 50 point minimum and no additional points for the added 61hp ? Yes I read all the information and plugged the information into the calculator but still can't believe this is allowed.

 If this is the case and there are no plans to close the loop hole we are thinking we may abandon our BMW after we build a 944. We had assumed the 944 would have to start with the VPI of the highest normally aspirated car which is a 944S2 ( 520) .

 

Now we just have the seemingly impossible task of doing the swap under the $2,500 maximum.

 

 

1.  The official list is the online swap calculator.   Go put in a theoretical swap and it will come up with precisely the value Tech will give it at impound.

 

They aren't "exceptions" in the realm that the BOD has said "thou shall not pay highest value swap points" and waved a magic wand..

These situations existed when the BOD was handed the series from the old Boss (Boss #2) and the status quo has been maintained.

 

The list I provided above was an internal list from my head as I was eating breakfast - no promises its accurate or complete in any way.

 

2.  The Honda's specifically I would LOVE to get changed, as a K-swapped EK or DC would be a really cheap fun competitive car IMO.  This would be good for the series with more potential customers from the honda camp.  EG civics or the older ones like the CRX Andrew races are getting hard to find.  Simon' Says runs a 2nd gen integra with a swap and they have a terrible time finding parts for their car at this point.

 

3. This was handed over from Chisek.  No idea what the decision process was.  I don't know 944's well enough to know what combination(s) VRG, cone crushers, etc are running.  Back in the day there were some objections but I was told to let it be.

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Again thanks Chris for taking the time to give quick and real answers .

 

"1.  The official list is the online swap calculator.   Go put in a theoretical swap and it will come up with precisely the value Tech will give it at impound.

They aren't "exceptions" in the realm that the BOD has said "thou shall not pay highest value swap points" and waved a magic wand..

These situations existed when the BOD was handed the series from the old Boss (Boss #2) and the status quo has been maintained."

 I put all the information on a 944 in the calculator and that is how I figured the 944 was not based on ".the highest valued model for the generation" I was just surprised .

 

They aren't "exceptions" in the realm that the BOD has said "thou shall not pay highest value swap points" and waved a magic wand..

These situations existed when the BOD was handed the series from the old Boss (Boss #2) and the status quo has been maintained.

 

Very honest and understandable answer.  May be time the Swap VPI on the 944 is reviewed and the Type R Integra removed as it is not realistic and the Integra's would be great cars for the series.

 I would be happy to create a ticket asking both to be reviewed if that helps.

 

2.  The Honda's specifically I would LOVE to get changed, as a K-swapped EK or DC would be a really cheap fun competitive car IMO.  This would be good for the series with more potential customers from the honda camp.  EG civics or the older ones like the CRX Andrew races are getting hard to find.  Simon' Says runs a 2nd gen integra with a swap and they have a terrible time finding parts for their car at this point.

 

I could not agree more. I have a friend that wants to run in Champcar with his WRL integra by putting a k20 in the car which fits the series perfect but with starting at the Type R 450 points it makes it tough.

 

3. This was handed over from Chisek.  No idea what the decision process was.  I don't know 944's well enough to know what combination(s) VRG, cone crushers, etc are running.  Back in the day there were some objections but I was told to let it be.

 

 Another very honest and understandable answer. Yeah looking at it objectively the highest NA 944 is a 520 point car and if one takes a normal 2.5L 944 and installs a 3.0L S2 motor then it is essentially a 944 S2 and you add the 50 points it becomes a 570 point car but the Swap calculator gives it 500 points. In my opinion ( which only matters to me ) is it would be fair if it were a 520 point car because the chassis are the exact same and putting the 3.0L makes it a S2.

 I know people get caught up in being above 500 points but as more cars come to the series that is the best way to balance newer faster cars and older cars but when we have a legitimate above 500 point car valued at 500 points that does not seem logical and must be an oversight that can easily be fixed.

 

 Chris thanks for taking the time to give honest and understandable answers and maybe these 2 items need some further discussion by the board as both are legitimate questions and can only help the series.

 

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, paulstreet said:

 

 

Very honest and understandable answer.  May be time the Swap VPI on the 944 is reviewed and the Type R Integra removed as it is not realistic and the Integra's would be great cars for the series.

 I would be happy to create a ticket asking both to be reviewed if that helps.

That was discussed very recently by the TAC.

Removing the Type R from the VPI list would cause additional problems - Specifically it was pointed out many cars use the Type R transmission and Header, which is not allowed if the car was removed.

 

 

10 minutes ago, paulstreet said:

 

 

3. This was handed over from Chisek.  No idea what the decision process was.  I don't know 944's well enough to know what combination(s) VRG, cone crushers, etc are running.  Back in the day there were some objections but I was told to let it be.

 

 Another very honest and understandable answer. Yeah looking at it objectively the highest NA 944 is a 520 point car and if one takes a normal 2.5L 944 and installs a 3.0L S2 motor then it is essentially a 944 S2 and you add the 50 points it becomes a 570 point car but the Swap calculator gives it 500 points. In my opinion ( which only matters to me ) is it would be fair if it were a 520 point car because the chassis are the exact same and putting the 3.0L makes it a S2.

 

 

 

Wouldn't that fall into a platform swap category?    The "swap" rules dont really apply if you put an engine in that was also stock installed in that same platform.

 

 

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Wouldn't that fall into a platform swap category?    The "swap" rules dont really apply if you put an engine in that was also stock installed in that same platform.

 Yes I think that would be a more fair application to everyone than hitting it for the 570 points it should have if it is treated as a swap . With the platform swap it would be a realistic 520 points and with the fuel capacity and performance of the 3.0L 944s that makes sense and still keeps them competitive, no way its a 500 point car.

 

Now if the teams chose to run a 944S engine in a standard 944 then that could be considered the same and it would be a 450 point car.

 

Again above 500 points is going to be more and more a part of the VPI as newer and faster cars come into the series.

 

These are good conversations to have so thank you Chris

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So I am checking in since I am the team owner of the Integra that is awaiting an answer on the review of the K series swap for our car so that we can compete in ChampCar this year.  I agree with Paul that there does seem to be some inaccuracies in the swap calculator which is very concerning.

 

The 944 deal was obviously approved by the old regime and I understand that puts ChampCar in a tight spot, but going forward we have to got to figure out a way to make the rules surrounding swaps the same for everyone.  Because in the strictest sense, the 944 S2 swaps are illegal for the reasons that Paul has already mentioned.  If it is indeed true that the only difference between a 944 and a 944S2 is the engine, then when performing the swap you are actually just making the car an S2.  In that case, it would then be a 520 point car (per the rules for all other cars not counting the 50 points for the swap itself).

 

As for the Integra, I don't believe that eliminating the Type R from the list is the answer.  I believe that the VPI needs to be adjusted in order to make the K swap a reality for the car.  The main reason for this is cost.  B series parts are getting rare and harder and harder to find.  They are also expensive because of the rarity.  The Type R is a a car that would never be raced in Champcar (rollers are now in the 10k dollar range).  But I agree that there are some Type R parts that can be used on the GSR and LS cars currently that does give some performance advantage.  I believe that since we can all agree that a Type R would never be raced in ChampCar, we need to lower the points value inline with the GSR.  If that can not be done, then ChampCar needs to consider allowing teams to use the lowest VPI model when performing a swap.  And I realize that will cause some issues with some cars, but let's address those now so that we can continue to grow the series and keep running a lot of these older cars for years to come.

 

I can't speak to the BMW's that were mentioned previously, but if you are going to pay premium points for a swap, you should be able to use the lowest VPI for that model as your base.  Obviously if the swapped engine makes more power stock, that can be controlled in the calculator and extra points given accordingly.  

 

Thanks again for taking time to respond to these concerns.

 

-Vincent

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25 minutes ago, VinnyV81 said:

The Type R is a a car that would never be raced in Champcar (rollers are now in the 10k dollar range). 

I don’t have the answer, but I have Learned one thing when it comes to race cars: Never underestimate someone’s budget or desire to field something unlikely, rare and or expensive.

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 Disclaimer - I am a Newbie to Champcar.....just trying to educate myself on the series that I have grown to love over the last 2 years.

 

This threads leads to  larger discussion in that at some point the current vpi is outdated due to most of the cars on the list that can be competitive are 30+ years old and are getting harder to find as are the parts. Examples - e30, sc300, 944's, and 97-99 Boxsters. Not to mention the survivor versions that can be found of these cars are at collector cost and not Champcar level.

As the vpi rules stand I would predict we will see larger percentage of the fields be over 500 pt cars and a continued increase in the number of Miata's in the series. At some point there needs to be a reset on the vpi as most of the 2000+ model cars have higher hp ratings. Example 1995 nissan 300Z is a 475 pt car, the next iteration the 2004 350Z is 525 pts. Newer cars, in general, make more HP as a result of technology gains. Here again guys, I am no expert, just a newbie that loves Champcar racing that is trying to learn as much as possible and enjoys studying the car platform options.

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In 2018 the boss at the time made the ruling the 944S2 was a different platform than the 944 which prevented a 944 swap from having to use the S2 value and it has stood since.  Aero package, ABS, the shock package that could be ordered from the factory, trans cooler, are a few items I remember as differences.  There has been a lot of criticism of this over the last 4 years of that ruling.  I know in discussions back then his reason was to give that car (and similarly the others Chris list above MR2, RX7, etc) a way to keep racing in the series and be competitive.  Right or wrong, that's how we got here.  Sometimes when there is one guy making decisions, he may miss out on unintended consequences that in discussion with others might be brought to light.

 

We operate a little differently now, so going forward, the TAC, BOD, and the members need to decide which direction to go, rescind those that are viewed as loopholes to the platform rule or make adjustments to others in the same situation as those were to somewhat balance it back out?  I know you guys have presented your cases to the TAC and BOD so we'll see where it all lands.

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I'm curious about the suspension S vs S2...in impound at Nelson last year, the 918 visceral car has adjustable shocks and I was told by Thomas + Ron "these were a factory offering and were OK". brb...going to educate myself with some google-fu

I ASSume both cars are registered as 944s cars as they are listed as 1987 and 1988 models, then modified (aero / swap).

 

944s w/ 3.0L motor swap and a 21gal tank is a 500pt monster. It walk a swapped e30 I can say that.

 

image.png.6eca3b37abbf454514d28bbc5f2a3856.png

 

image.png.65f513033153e85c3f29cd8b0a84753e.png

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Maybe also look at the Honda Civic/CRXs that are also manipulated to allow a 200 hp engine in a sub-2000# car for under 500 points. And the JDM engine loophole allowing the use of higher hp USDM engines that can't swap but claiming them as a lower rated JDM version so they fit the swap calculator. 

 

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Very much a recurring theme here, a rule is made with a vague definition (swap "weight", chassis generation, etc.) and then things are massaged behind the scenes to keep the racing competitive while upsetting as few people as possible. I'm sure this is all done with good intentions, but it's not exactly transparent, leaving a lot of room for doubts about favoritism.

 

We've all accepted the giant list of fudge factors that is the VPI table, so I see little reason to try to convince ourselves that any strictly formulaic approach is going to work for all cases. Leave that approach to other series.

 

Now that we have more than one person involved in these decisions and more transparency in general, I would suggest we just admit that these numbers are intended to be adjusted as needed and open to periodic review. Most of the hard work has been done, we have a big table of swap weights and a tool that generates swap values (Pre-swap VPI) independent of the main VPI table. Just cut ties to the idea/rule that the swap "weight" has to be strictly related to a published weight and that the pre-swap VPI comes from the VPI table "highest value" (even though those were the starting points). Now you (we) are free to make the adjustments that are necessary, of course it will have to stand up to public scrutiny, but that's really another step in the right direction IMO

 

Edited for clarity

Edited by ABR-Glen
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3 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

I would suggest we just admit that these numbers are intended to be adjusted as needed and open to periodic review. Most of the hard work has been done, we have a big table of swap weights and a tool that generates swap values independent of the VPI table. Just cut ties to the idea/rule that the swap "weight" has to be strictly related to a published weight and that the swap VPI comes from the regular VPI table (even though those were the starting points). Now you (we) are free to make the adjustments that are necessary, of course it will have to stand up to public scrutiny, but that's really another step in the right direction IMO

Agreed, but I recommend we go 1 step further...

 

Acknowledge that we have this "ideal table" of post-swap values that are reasonable and good. And then we have this other "calculator table" of post-swap values that is spat out by the calculator. And if values in the "calculator table" differ greatly from the "ideal table", then something needs to be changed to bring these values closer. This could be swap weight, it could be a restriction like the "highest value model" rule, it could be an exemption to the highest value model rule. Anyway, adjustments are made to bring the calculator table close to the ideal table, and then the values in the calculator table are used for the car+swap in question.

 

Now that we have acknowledged this.. we should do the following: 

Acknowledge that we have this "ideal table" of post-swap values that are reasonable and good. And then we have this other "calculator table" of post-swap values that is spat out by the calculator. And if values in the "calculator table" differ greatly from the "ideal table", then something needs to be changed to bring these values closer. This could be swap weight, it could be a restriction like the "highest value model" rule, it could be an exemption to the highest value model rule. Anyway, adjustments are made to bring the calculator table close to the ideal table, and then the values in the calculator table are used for the car+swap in question.

 

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 The 944S2 and the all other 944s from 1985.5  had the exact same chassis.

 

 The 944S2 is nothing special or radical compared to the 9444s that came before it . The S2 had the exact same aero as a 944Turbo ( introduced in 1986)  and the only body difference from the 944S2 and the standard 944 were different front and rear bumpers ,rear spoiler , side skirts and under the rear bumper to smooth air flow out from under the car.

 The Brembo brakes ( introduced on  1986 Turbo ) , suspension packages ( M030 Available from 1987 )  , transmission cooler and LSD were all exactly the same as optional on the 944S2 and all other 944s all the way from 1987 to 1991. The ABS system was introduced on 1986 944 Turbo and was the same until 1994 968 and was standard starting with the 1986 Turbo.

The M030 suspension option consisted of  stiffer springs, torsion bars and Koni yellow single adjustable dampers and adjustable ride height.

If the current 944s that are being raced have adjustable dampers just because it was a factory option then I would think  is legal but is still 25 points per corner so sounds like they are even more in need of a review

4.3. FIXED POINTS 4.3.1. Non-stock Component Values: ChampCar has assigned a FIXED POINT VALUE that will be applied to MOST non-stock and/or performance components

 I would think the above  part of this statement that says " and or performance components " would make the cars that decided to use them take the points to do so.

 

 So if what was said earlier that the M0300 is allowed to be used because it was a option then this is what the 944s get that other cars do not

1-Adjsutable dampers

2-Adjustable ride height front and rear

3- Ability to use standard race spring in front different rate torsion bars rear while other cars have limited choices because the springs have to be shame shape as stock

image.png.653dd1dc4a80c8198a7246ac31c3f41b.png

 I can't imagine how this happened unless the series did not understand and bought the "944S2 is a different car" with out understanding . Keep in mind during the late 80s Porsche was near bankruptcy and made very few changes to their cars and with those cars they shared parts all across the line

 The 1985 and earlier cars were just a little different but from 1985.5 to 1991 all of the chassis are the same. My 1986 944 has all the mounting hardware on it from the factory for the 944 Turbo side skirts , they are the same car. I bought all the M030 Suspension for the 1986 944 I have .

 

  Not sure if any of you guys remember the 944S2s that raced in the old Firehawk series in the late 80s early 90s but those stock 944s were dominant against Corvettes , Firebirds and Camaros . A  944S2 properly setup is a track monster and throw in the 21 gal fuel tank it does not take a great team to do well .

 

 Also there is a cap on the swap at $2,500. Can anyone find a 3.0L S2 motor  , harness and ECU anywhere in the country for that ?

 

My opinion (and that only matters to me) is if the engine is changed on a 944 it is a chassis swap and should have the VPI points from the car the engine came from which in most cases would be a 520 point 944S2 and the Koni yellow single adjuster dampers and adjustable front ride height ( all of them have adjustable rear ride height ) are allowed but take the normal points hit as everyone else.

 

 Hopefully the TAC and Board will look into this and all the information is out there and readily available .We are thinking of building a 944 but want rules clarity first.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

And the 944 shenanigans have been going on for years. 

 

 Maybe with the new board members this can be looked into as there is no logical explanation for it. I can see convincing someone that was ignorant to the transaxle Porsche line that a 968 is a different car (it isn't) but a 944S2, no way  a logical person could come to that conclusion unless the decision was made for different reasons and that excuse was given . 

 This is not the same group of people that first allowed this so we can hope this group will not be the group that allows it to continue.

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Agreed, but I recommend we go 1 step further...

 

Acknowledge that we have this "ideal table" of post-swap values that are reasonable and good. And then we have this other "calculator table" of post-swap values that is spat out by the calculator. And if values in the "calculator table" differ greatly from the "ideal table", then something needs to be changed to bring these values closer. This could be swap weight, it could be a restriction like the "highest value model" rule, it could be an exemption to the highest value model rule. Anyway, adjustments are made to bring the calculator table close to the ideal table, and then the values in the calculator table are used for the car+swap in question.

 

Now that we have acknowledged this.. we should do the following: 

Acknowledge that we have this "ideal table" of post-swap values that are reasonable and good. And then we have this other "calculator table" of post-swap values that is spat out by the calculator. And if values in the "calculator table" differ greatly from the "ideal table", then something needs to be changed to bring these values closer. This could be swap weight, it could be a restriction like the "highest value model" rule, it could be an exemption to the highest value model rule. Anyway, adjustments are made to bring the calculator table close to the ideal table, and then the values in the calculator table are used for the car+swap in question.

 

What is the "ideal table" that we already have? 

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