New class petition

[enginerd]

There's a petition in the current round which basically says "create a 300 point class". This would be separate from the other classes which race at 500 points. This is similar to some petitions in the past with slight differences. The stated objectives often relate to getting new teams involved. Teams can show up with a new, ill-prepared car, and not be stuck "competing" against established teams with maxed out 500 point cars. As they attend more races and get experience, they can build their cars up to 500 and compete for the real podium. 

 

One key flaw of this thinking is that there are many great starter cars which have a VPI at or near 500 points. BMW e36 for instance, is a great way to get involved cheaply and it's 470?480? something in there. A brand new team with an e36 wouldn't be contention for a class which is intended to cater to such new teams. Another flaw is that driving and efficient pit stops is such a huge factor in success that a new team handed a great car is still unlikely to do well. The lack of experience is much more important than the point value of the car.

 

So what we have in this/previous similar petitions is:

We want to recognize / reward new teams  => New teams probably have sub-optimally prepared cars?? => These sub-optimal cars are probably low point value because they haven't added a lot of 'go fast' parts?? => create new class at 300 points which would be a home for such teams => New teams get recognized / rewarded??

 

And what we should do is this:

We want to recognize / reward new teams  => New teams probably have sub-optimally prepared cars => These sub-optimal cars are probably low point value because they haven't added a lot of 'go fast' parts => create new class at 300 points which would be a home for such teams create a rookie class => New teams get recognized / rewarded

Edited March 21, 2022 by enginerd

[obscene]

I like the sound of a rookie class. The details of which would have to be quite clear and somehow enforced. What constitutes a rookie team? 

 

Me for example: I'm hoping to enter a 2022 event for the first time running my own team, however, I've driven for other teams in the past.

 

Am I a rookie? 

[enginerd]

18 minutes ago, obscene said:

The details of which would have to be quite clear and somehow enforced. What constitutes a rookie team? 

I picture it being very subjective and loosely defined. Perhaps a checkbox during online entry with some guiding questions (if you answered yes to these, you're probably a rookie team!): Is this your teams first race or first season with ChampCar? Do you expect to place near the front or happy to just finish?

Race director would have the final say and finishing on the overall podium would rule you out of rookie class going forward. Some teams with experience elsewhere will show up and do very well even as rookies, but that's fine. Perfect is the enemy of 'good enough'.

Edited March 21, 2022 by enginerd

[mhr650]

Another argument against the 300 point class is the fact that really low point cars are getting much harder to find and build. Good examples of many old cars which fit the low points starting value have become collectable and out of the price range for building into race cars.

[jmabarone]

19 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

Another argument against the 300 point class is the fact that really low point cars are getting much harder to find and build. Good examples of many old cars which fit the low points starting value have become collectable and out of the price range for building into race cars.

+1 to this.  We're going to race under 500 points for our first race predominantly from the perspective of not throwing money down a rabbit hole.  Short of a  swap, it would be somewhat difficult to get the RX7 up to 500 points.  

[tommytipover]

12 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

Another argument against the 300 point class is the fact that really low point cars are getting much harder to find and build. Good examples of many old cars which fit the low points starting value have become collectable and out of the price range for building into race cars.

My perspective is that pushing the easy button can easily get you over 500 points. I don't think new teams are showing up with 300 point cars. They show up in something that was previously prepared for some other series, and their car that, has basic go-fast parts on it, is already over 500 points, or it has a fuel cell that is too big, and they end up in EC. Think about it, if you inherit your big brother's ricer-racer and its got camber plates Koni yellows with coil-overs, header and sway bars yours looking at 225 points. If I remember correctly, in the early days of VPI, even spec-Miatas came in above 500.

Maybe best of both worlds would be to define and label a rookie team, and allow them to run without counting points for x-number of races?

 

[ETR]

It's a big assumption that new teams are coming in with low points.  Especially in Champ, big points don't always mean big power or big budgets.  Take it from the guy running an 800pt stock powered nb miata.  I know I know.... making changes to run A before the end of the year.  

 

I do like the idea of recognition for teams in their first race or first year of Champ, really sink the hook and get them coming back, but point values don't correlate.  Budgets, go-fast parts, car of choice, and resulting point values don't have a whole lot to do with whether your a seasoned racer or a newb.

 

Make sure these new teams go home and tell all their friends.  Seems like nobody knows about this average-people-accessible racing, even in the car community.

 

 

 

 

 

[Black Magic]

I think there are two different problems.

 

1) New teams, which may show up with a new build based on a high value car. Hopefully in a few races they would learn what is required to run like a top team.

 

2) New and existing teams that want to race a car will below 500 points because it is cheap. Money is the only way to make them competitive.

 

In our garage, among many other racecars are a 1.6 spec miata and a former spec neon\ita car. We bought the neon ready to run in champ (if you upgrades belts, net and fire) for $2400. Neither it nor the miata would be competitive with 500 point cars without spending thousands. They race in different series for that reason, if there was a motivation to bring them to a champ race they would just need fuel and drivers to enter. Instead those are b class lemons and lucky dog cars, and have people to race against in those series.

[tommytipover]

31 minutes ago, ETR said:

 but point values don't correlate.  Budgets, go-fast parts, car of choice, and resulting point values don't have a whole lot to do with whether your a seasoned racer or a newb.

If a sway bar is 20 points, a wing should not be 10 points... I really think a re-rationalization of point values needs to be done.

[Wink]

40 minutes ago, tommytipover said:

If a sway bar is 20 points, a wing should not be 10 points... I really think a re-rationalization of point values needs to be done.

A reminder, that just a FEW years ago, everyone on this forum said aero wouldn't work on our cars, because they are too slow...

 

What if class 300 was meant to be more affordable, would the petition work then? Can we find a number that would attract more lemons cars to cross over?

[Fitsbain]

46 minutes ago, Wink said:

A reminder, that just a FEW years ago, everyone on this forum said aero wouldn't work on our cars, because they are too slow...

 

What if class 300 was meant to be more affordable, would the petition work then? Can we find a number that would attract more lemons cars to cross over?

The issue is that the lack of "points" in lemons, means that lots of lemons end up in EC (mine included).

 

larger than stock fuel cells, weird motor swaps, "hat" cars, etc....

 

And yes I crew for a team that races the same car in both series (and we finish most of the time, but not really competing for the podium (not fast enough, and we step on our own.....)

[ABR-Glen]

1 hour ago, Wink said:

A reminder, that just a FEW years ago, everyone on this forum said aero wouldn't work on our cars, because they are too slow...

 

Those people were pulling the wool over your eyes.

[MichaelPal]

5 hours ago, enginerd said:

There's a petition in the current round which basically says "create a 300 point class". This would be separate from the other classes which race at 500 points. This is similar to some petitions in the past with slight differences. The stated objectives often relate to getting new teams involved. Teams can show up with a new, ill-prepared car, and not be stuck "competing" against established teams with maxed out 500 point cars. As they attend more races and get experience, they can build their cars up to 500 and compete for the real podium. 

 

One key flaw of this thinking is that there are many great starter cars which have a VPI at or near 500 points. BMW e36 for instance, is a great way to get involved cheaply and it's 470?480? something in there. A brand new team with an e36 wouldn't be contention for a class which is intended to cater to such new teams. Another flaw is that driving and efficient pit stops is such a huge factor in success that a new team handed a great car is still unlikely to do well. The lack of experience is much more important than the point value of the car.

 

So what we have in this/previous similar petitions is:

We want to recognize / reward new teams  => New teams probably have sub-optimally prepared cars?? => These sub-optimal cars are probably low point value because they haven't added a lot of 'go fast' parts?? => create new class at 300 points which would be a home for such teams => New teams get recognized / rewarded??

 

And what we should do is this:

We want to recognize / reward new teams  => New teams probably have sub-optimally prepared cars => These sub-optimal cars are probably low point value because they haven't added a lot of 'go fast' parts => create new class at 300 points which would be a home for such teams create a rookie class => New teams get recognized / rewarded

I agree that points is maybe the wrong metric, but I agree with the spirit of the proposal. (But the spirit of the proposal maybe needs a definition, is it #1 or #2?) 

 

1) Recognition for new team / drivers 
2) recognition of limited racecar prep. 

 

If #1: what about RFID tags for drivers? That way total laps is a known QTY. for a driver team with less than XX total laps , they are considered rookies? 
 

if #2: I don’t know at this time. Nate raises good points. I’ll give it a think. 

[Hugh Jass]

6 hours ago, MichaelPal said:

If #1: what about RFID tags for drivers? That way total laps is a known QTY. for a driver team with less than XX total laps , they are considered rookies? 

 

I am highly in favor of driver tracking, we should know who is in the car.  I don't think I am in favor of a 300pt class, but perhaps arguments here will sway me.  When I started we didn't do it to get a trophy, I did it to go racing wheel to wheel. If we want to do driver tracking and make an award for rookies, then I support it. Let's identify the quality rookies and recognize them. It would be great for drivers to be easily able to produce an independent resume of their experience too. 

[jmabarone]

7 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:

 

I am highly in favor of driver tracking, we should know who is in the car.  I don't think I am in favor of a 300pt class, but perhaps arguments here will sway me.  When I started we didn't do it to get a trophy, I did it to go racing wheel to wheel. If we want to do driver tracking and make an award for rookies, then I support it. Let's identify the quality rookies and recognize them. It would be great for drivers to be easily able to produce an independent resume of their experience too. 

As a person who could feasibly run a 300pt car for said 300pt class, the issue would be the relative speed.  A well driven 300pt car may not be too far off the pace of perhaps a slower or newbie 500pt team, but if the experience level is swapped, there could be a massive speed differential.  With the quality and quantity of fast cars running right now, a bunch of newbies in a 300pt car could easily be either a nuisance or a danger on the track. 

[cowboys647]

I like the idea of a 300pt class. As someone who showed up in a 1.6 spec Miata, our doors were blown off at the first race we went to. Now that was because we were inexperienced but also because we were slow. 
 

I had two options at that point:

 

1. Continue racing without modifications and getting demolished

 

2. Add modifications to bring us closer to the speed of the pointy end. 
 

I’ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars doing this and now deal with an enormous amount of wear items due to the increased pace. Hubs used to last years, now they last 8 hours. I’m even considering dropping the $1200 for bulletproof hubs... Used to get 2-3 races out of tires, now only 1. I don’t even want to talk about brake pads. 
 

My point is that I would have loved the option for a limited prep class where I could have stayed and used my money instead to do more races. 

[frankrehnelt]

29 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

I like the idea of a 300pt class. As someone who showed up in a 1.6 spec Miata, our doors were blown off at the first race we went to. Now that was because we were inexperienced but also because we were slow. 
 

I had two options at that point:

 

1. Continue racing without modifications and getting demolished

 

2. Add modifications to bring us closer to the speed of the pointy end. 
 

I’ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars doing this and now deal with an enormous amount of wear items due to the increased pace. Hubs used to last years, now they last 8 hours. I’m even considering dropping the $1200 for bulletproof hubs... Used to get 2-3 races out of tires, now only 1. I don’t even want to talk about brake pads. 
 

My point is that I would have loved the option for a limited prep class where I could have stayed and used my money instead to do more races. 

This is my main reasoning for creating this class. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by frankrehnelt

[MichaelPal]

14 minutes ago, frankrehnelt said:

This is my main reasoning for creating this class. 

 

So what if a new team enters and choses a 450pt can and adds no modifications, does that count as limited prep? How do you account for the scenarios that Nate presents? 

[frankrehnelt]

12 minutes ago, MichaelPal said:

 

So what if a new team enters and choses a 450pt can and adds no modifications, does that count as limited prep? How do you account for the scenarios that Nate presents? 

It’s a different way to skin a cat. I wanted something simple. A rookie class would involve a lot of work and data…..and controversy. We have a hard enough time implementing sound or lighting rules. Write a petition for a rookie class. I’m all for bringing in new blood.  

Edited March 22, 2022 by frankrehnelt

[jmabarone]

It would also allow some of the older low point cars to race without dropping cubic dollars to get to 500 points.  

[Hillar K]

A rookie class would be a lot of work to keep track of, and involve a good bit of definition. Rookie drivers? 1st time car has run in CC, but has drivers that have run in other series? It would get cumbersome.

[frankrehnelt]

44 minutes ago, MichaelPal said:

 

So what if a new team enters and choses a 450pt can and adds no modifications, does that count as limited prep? How do you account for the scenarios that Nate presents? 

Bringing in new teams is only part of the goal for my proposal. His scenario would be better suited in a rookie class. We currently have no petitions for a rookie class. 

[cowboys647]

What are peoples’ oppositions to a 300 pt class? I’m curious if anyone has any reasonable issues here.

 

And before anyone says that more slow cars will be a safety issue, I regularly see plenty of extremely slow drivers/cars at every race we do. That won’t change no matter what. 

[mhr650]

Where are teams going to find these cars which can be raced at 300 points with even the bare minimum race prep? You are not getting any BMW, the lowliest Miata is 250 points. Probably any suitable car less than 25 years old is going to be too many points. The only remotely desirable cars which come in at very low points are really old cars which require a significant amount of work to be even close to competitive. The only people who are likely to want to fool with these old cars are people who already have them. I know that I am in a very small minority who wants to take a 100-point car and run at the front, but in my case the building is the fun part.

[jmabarone]

9 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

Where are teams going to find these cars which can be raced at 300 points with even the bare minimum race prep? You are not getting any BMW, the lowliest Miata is 250 points. Probably any suitable car less than 25 years old is going to be too many points. The only remotely desirable cars which come in at very low points are really old cars which require a significant amount of work to be even close to competitive. The only people who are likely to want to fool with these old cars are people who already have them. I know that I am in a very small minority who wants to take a 100-point car and run at the front, but in my case the building is the fun part.

This guy right here!

Hypothetically speaking, if I were going to build say, a Porsche, from scratch, I would absolutely start with a Boxster over a 944 all day long.  Performance potential aside, the age of the platform and the common availability of parts is a huge factor.  With that said, the newest under-500 Boxster is still 22 years old.