New build questions

[BILL]

Newbie here wanting to get involved in endurance stuff.

 

 1980 camaro. Engine 1970 lt1, trans t10.

 

Can I use an aftermarket steel block  (brodix, dart, world) still a 4in bore 350 main or is that totally illegal?

 

Same for the rest of the rotating assembly. Eagle rotating steel crank 3.48, 5.7 rods,flat top forged piston. Stock dimensions on all.

 

The 80 camaro and 70 both have a 150pt base so I figure there wouldn't be penalty in a swap.

 

Don't flame me..just trying to get an idea of how I wanna build this car and what I can and can not do. 

 

Thanks, Bill

[Throoster]

I was almost expecting green font there.....

 

They are the same generation but different models. You could completely convert the 1970 (technically 1970 1/2?) to 1980 specs or vice versa but not really mix and match parts betwen 1970 and 1980 to make a unicorn.

 

I would guess that all of that is a no go. Stock blueprinting is probably ok, but replacement HP parts with names like brodix, dart, world, eagle, etc... probably raises a lot of eyebrows....(and protests if you win/show/place)

 

Given that, there are plenty of ways to replicate those advantages with "stock" parts and still stay within the rules. Just more expensive and time consuming 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Throoster
spelling/grammer

[Bandit]

The block is an equivalent replacement so I don't see why there would be an issue. Other parts should be the same.

 

Saying that, for the power levels you'll be running it certainly isn't necessary. Of course assuming the new parts are machined correctly, it's likely cheaper to go that way versus rebuilding/machining all the factory parts. The block on the other hand would seem to be a good bit more than just cleaning up a factory one.

 

The second gen Camaro is kind of interesting as the early cars had 18 gallon tanks, while 74(?) and later had 21. I wouldn't call it a 70 just for that reason. And swapping will raise a can of worms as the '70 LT1's were rated in gross horsepower, not net. I'm not familiar with anyone having tried that discussion with tech. You'd be further ahead just spicing up the 1980 350 as using the 1971 LT1, which was rated net at 275hp, puts the after swap value at 489 points. The 71 was all the same parts as the '70 as I recall other than lower compression. Heads/cam/intake on the 1980 engine would be cheaper points and heads really are not necessary for the power level you'll want. Just mildly port some stockers.

 

The one thing I'd like to get a clarification on, and have never asked as yet, is if the World S/R heads would be considered equivalent replacement. Fact is, that is exactly what they were made for; classes that require stock heads as the 40+ year old originals are getting hard to find a decent set and it is cheaper to just bolt a set of the S/R's on versus rebuilding old used heads.  S/R actually stands for stock replacement and in flow tests they flow the same as typical 70's SBC heads. ie-Not well.

 

eta-The T-10 came factory in the 1980 Camaro so no issue at all.

 

Another eta-You don't need 400 crank horsepower in this series and frankly don't want it due to the increased number of 5 minute fuel stops. A basically stock late 70's SBC, rebuilt of course, with some mild porting and a mild cam/headers will put out plenty of HP to make sure you are not passed on the straights. I'd be surprised if any car is hitting 300 at the rear wheels. (well, maybe one)

 

If you want to save money, just stick a 4.8 LS in. Generally no rebuild necessary. 2nd gen Camaro with 255HP 4.8 swap is a new total of 278 points. 50 points for a cam to get whatever HP you want leaves plenty of points for suspension.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Bandit

[Bandit]

1 hour ago, Throoster said:

I would guess that all of that is a no go. Stock blueprinting is probably ok, but replacement HP parts with names like brodix, dart, world, eagle, etc... probably raises a lot of eyebrows....(and protests if you win/show/place)

 A SBC built up from a Dart 4in bore block, with an eagle 3.48in rotating assembly, unported World S/R heads, 11-1 domed pistons, Holley Street Dominator intake and LT1 cam will put out around 362HP on an engine dyno.

 

The factory LT1 with factory block, factory forged steel crank, unported 482 heads, 11-1 domed pistons, stock LT1 aluminum intake and the same LT1 cam will put out the same 362HP on an engine dyno.

 

There is no reliability advantage at these power levels. It's just cheaper than rebuilding/machining all the 50 year old parts.

 

Saying a guy can't use aftermarket parts, even if they are replacement parts, would seem to open a can of worms. Is anyone buying their pistons from BMW when doing a rebuild? (I really don't know, but doubt it.)

 

btw-I've been told by tech that a brand new Muncie M22 from Super 661 is an equivalent replacement as all the parts are interchangeable with the old original 4 speeds.

 

*Another discussion that points out difficulties with the current ruleset. Who gives a turkey if a guy has an aftermarket crank. He saved money over getting an old relic machined undersize to get one more use out of it. Is tech going to pull the oil pan to check it? Are they going to check if the 3.42 rear end gears are GM or Richmond?

Edited May 15, 2022 by Bandit

[BILL]

I don't have a problem with eating the points for cam, valvetrian, heads, ie hydraulic roller, afr 195, roller rockers, intake and carb(750 holley).

It's the shortblock I want clarification on. I already have parts I can use. But if I have to spend money on stock junk just to hope it lives that's a little bit of a downer.

 

So maybe I am reading the rules wrong.  I saw pre80 fbody v8 whether it's firebird or camaro at 150pts. I figured that regardless it would start at 150pts then anything else is pts added from there. You are saying I would start at 489pts for the swap. I don't understand the 339 pt difference

Edited May 15, 2022 by BILL

[Bandit]

13 minutes ago, BILL said:

cam, valvetrian, heads, ie hydraulic roller, afr 195, roller rockers, intake and carb(750 holley).

Would be world's fastest Champcar. And thirstiest. 

 

I'd use a stock block. They're still cheap and someone will scream about a Dart block. No pans are being pulled in 30 minutes of tech and that internal stuff doesn't add anything other than saving money.

 

Flames will soon commence.

 

I edited one of the above posts, in case you didn't see it, to suggest a 255hp 4.8 LS as a wise choice for a 2nd gen. With a cam swap it has all the power needed.

[Bandit]

1 hour ago, BILL said:

So maybe I am reading the rules wrong.  I saw pre80 fbody v8 whether it's firebird or camaro at 150pts. I figured that regardless it would start at 150pts then anything else is pts added from there. You are saying I would start at 489pts for the swap. I don't understand the 339 pt difference

Edited 35 minutes ago by BILL

Just another bit of screwy rules.

 

A 1970 Camaro is 150 points the same as a 1980. You can't mix and match parts though, meaning if you have what you claim as a 1970 Z28 it has to use the 18 gallon fuel capacity. Either the stock tank or 2 gallons more for a cell. Meanwhile if you use the 1980 you have a 21 gallon to tank to work off of, but can't have the '70 LT1 engine without swapping.

 

Another example, the 1980 came with a T-10 while the '70 had a Muncie.

 

So the swap points are due to using a 1980 Camaro, what you said you have, and sticking a 1971 LT1 in it that is rated at 275 net HP. (I used the '71 due to the 70 being rated gross HP only. Gross ratings have never been taken into account.) You could claim it is a '70/'71 for 150 points but would have to go with the smaller gas capacity and a Muncie trans. (Or take 25 points for the T10)

 

Hope that makes sense. The rules often don't to incoming racers.

 

eta-AFR heads, roller cam, etc make the engine definitely not a 70/71 LT1 anyway, so swap value is meaningless if you use those parts. Swap would be for swapping a stock engine in. Meaning 482 heads and stock solid lifter LT1 cam along with the pricey factory AL intake. If you are going to change all that there is nothing LT1 left. And simple points for heads/cam/intake would be used.

 

Which is cheaper points than the swap anyway.

 

Swap calculator link; https://champcar.org/web/register/vpi-swap.php

Edited May 15, 2022 by Bandit

[jakks]

1 hour ago, Bandit said:

Would be world's fastest Champcar. And thirstiest. 

 

I'd use a stock block. They're still cheap and someone will scream about a Dart block. No pans are being pulled in 30 minutes of tech and that internal stuff doesn't add anything other than saving money.

 

Flames will soon commence.

 

I edited one of the above posts, in case you didn't see it, to suggest a 255hp 4.8 LS as a wise choice for a 2nd gen. With a cam swap it has all the power needed.

The time for protests to be filed and racers to look over the cars is 30 minutes. Inspection due to protest or tech finding something to look into further is longer than that.  Race can become official up to 90 minutes after impound begins.

[BILL]

So if istart with a stock 350 motor (1980) and a t10 because they were both in that car I would start at 150 pts,  then pts assessed from that starting point. 

 

Can I use any 350 block or does it have to be a 1980 casting? Like no factory roller motor short blocks or penalty for a swapped engine in that case. It would have to be a hydraulic flat tappet 2pc rear main good old fashioned 350.

 

Same thing goes for the heads. Low compression 1980 smog style or a 100pt penalty for a head swap?

Edited May 15, 2022 by BILL

[Ron_e]

8 hours ago, Bandit said:

The one thing I'd like to get a clarification on, and have never asked as yet, is if the World S/R heads would be considered equivalent replacement. Fact is, that is exactly what they were made for; classes that require stock heads as the 40+ year old originals are getting hard to find a decent set and it is cheaper to just bolt a set of the S/R's on versus rebuilding old used heads.  S/R actually stands for stock replacement and in flow tests they flow the same as typical 70's SBC heads. ie-Not well.

 

 

I have asked and they would look carefully at the product wording and note it says, "extra-thick decks and walls for improved reliability".  They would ask what car it is for, if the reply is Mustang they would say denied you have to take the 100 points for the swap.

 

The comparison is wanting to use Koni STR.T for base pricing for a Mustang 2X, noting the word "improvement" in the product details, then saying no you have to use the cheaper pricing for the Koni Excel-G's then take the points for the Bilsteins.  I still have the e-mail.

 

If it is for BMW/Miata it would be approved as points free, Camaro seems to be somewhat favorable so it may be approved.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Ron_e

[wvumtnbkr]

8 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

I have asked and they would look carefully at the product wording and note it says, "extra-thick decks and walls for improved reliability".  They would ask what car it is for, if the reply is Mustang they would say denied you have to take the 100 points for the swap.

 

The comparison is wanting to use Koni STR.T for base pricing for a Mustang 2X, noting the word "improvement" in the product details, then saying no you have to use the cheaper pricing for the Koni Excel-G's then take the points for the Bilsteins.  I still have the e-mail.

 

If it is for BMW/Miata it would be approved as points free, Camaro seems to be somewhat favorable so it may be approved.

That shock stuff is old news.  You can use any non adjustable at this point for free 

 

However, your point is valid.  If it is improved, it's points over oem (excepting stuff on the fixed points value list).

[Bandit]

If you want to stick with a SBC I'd just start with a 255HP Vortec 5.7. Same swap points as the 4.8, swap calc is based on HP only, and has way better heads than any smog casting. Much better torque than the 4.8 as well.

 

With the 5.7 Vortec you have a roller block so no concerns about somebody protesting that. Just the heads alone would put you at 250 while the Vortec swap is 278. 28 points to save anyone protesting your car.

 

If you want to use your AFR's, I think they are overkill but AL is nice for losing weight, I don't think anyone is going to be jumping up and down if you have a 010 block or a late 80's 638 roller from a TPI car for that matter. Might depend on who you beat and if they know Chevy casting numbers.

 

It won't be possible to tell what exact year the block is if it's been decked since Chevy didn't stamp them on a separate pad so it doesn't have to be a 1980 block. 

 

eta-I've felt, and said, for quite some time the 2nd gens are the best cars to go fast with in CC. Low points and big gas tank. Most American cars are saddled with too small of fuel tanks for endurance racing. Saying that, even with 21 gallons stock it's easy to put too much power in the car and be stopping every 1.5 hours which will mean making up and extra stop(s).

Edited May 15, 2022 by Bandit

[Bandit]

12 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

"extra-thick decks and walls for improved reliability".

The only racing series that penalizes reliability.  

[mender]

Pick the year ('74+) with the biggest fuel tank and take whatever points you need for the other stuff.

 

With the present rules you can't use points for more fuel capacity. 

 

1974 Z28 Engine - L82 245hp Block 3970010   4 bolt main, suffix codes: CLK, CLJ, CMS, CMT Crankshaft 330550   Forged steel Cylinder Head 333881   2.02/1.6, 76.18cc, identical to 333882, except w/bigger valves, screw in studs & guide plates Cam 3896964   symbol: vertical diamond, Identical to 1973 Intake 340261     Carb (A/T) 7044208   Rochester Quadrajet 4BBL, Remote Automatic Choke, w/Automatic Trans Carb (M/T) 7044209   Rochester Quadrajet 4BBL, Remote Automatic Choke, w/Manual Trans Distributor 1112148   Single Point, Uniset contact, RFI shield, Vacuum, Lite Blue paint spot Distributor 1112528   HEI after 1/74, Vacuum, Lite Blue paint spot RH Exhaust 3986330   Log type, 2.026" outlet LH Exhaust 3989041   Log type, 2.026" outlet Alternator: Delcotron 37 Amp, part # 1102397 Water Pump: 6263701 Cam specs: Hydraulic, Lift: .450/.460 (intake/exhaust), Duration: 346/360 (i/e), with 1.5 rockers. Distributor Note: 3123 Z28's were built after January 74 with the HEI distributor. Prior to this the Z28 had the same distributor as the 1973 Z28.

 

http://www.nastyz28.com/animwave.gif

Edited May 15, 2022 by mender

[wvumtnbkr]

25 minutes ago, Bandit said:

The only racing series that penalizes reliability.  

Or lemons.  Or, really any endurance based series.  It's not as directly written, but if you show up to a wrl race with a dart block, I'm sure there would be a modifier. 

 

I mean, the point is to do the most with the least.  If champcar allows aftermarket blocks, we have truly jumped the shark.

 

 

[Bandit]

25 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It's not as directly written, but if you show up to a wrl race with a dart block, I'm sure there would be a modifier. 

No, there isn't. 

 

1. Open, Allowed or “Free” Modifications: All cars are allowed to make the following modifications to build reliable, cost-effective, and competitive cars. Cars prepped above this level are still legal to race but will be subject to additional scrutiny, classing modifiers, dyno plots and possible class change. NOTE: OE-Originally equipped. OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer.

 

a. Engine: Open. Engine Modifications are addressed by dyno testing as described in section D.

 

Open means you can stick an aluminum block in there if you want. They only care about the power at the rear wheels. And they don't care if you run 20 coolers.

 

Only CC is concerned if a part increases reliability and charges points for reliability items like oil coolers and road race oil pans. *And most likely 100 points for replacement heads that flow just as bad as those on your grandma's 75 Caprice.

 

And who cares what Lemons does. If you give them a bottle of Scotch your Dart blocked, 427 SBC stuffed in a Bentley will be on the track with zero laps. They don't demand a tax for running an oil cooler and certainly don't check to see if you have 128 heads on your 85 C4 versus the later 113s.

 

The most with the least? That's why springs, shocks, brakes etc are all free now, right? It hasn't been pull a hooptie out of the back 40 and race it for a long time.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Bandit

[wvumtnbkr]

1 hour ago, Bandit said:

No, there isn't. 

 

1. Open, Allowed or “Free” Modifications: All cars are allowed to make the following modifications to build reliable, cost-effective, and competitive cars. Cars prepped above this level are still legal to race but will be subject to additional scrutiny, classing modifiers, dyno plots and possible class change. NOTE: OE-Originally equipped. OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer.

 

The most with the least? That's why springs, shocks, brakes etc are all free now, right? It hasn't been pull a hooptie out of the back 40 and race it for a long time.

Which oe or oem is dart?

 

Also, there are plenty of cars at the pointy end in champcar with stock brakes, bilsteins you can buy at oreillys, and junkyard motors.

 

I'm just trying to help this person and not have them waste money on this build and get protested.  

 

I'm fairly certain the build as described would be protested and it would be upheld.

 

I'm not anti v8 or whatever.  There is plenty of power to be made with stick parts.  Just ask gbu.  Or drunken squirrels, or loney tunes.

 

Cars are winning races with 175 to 200 hp all the time.  Reduce weight and build a reliable sbc with about 225 to 275 hp and you'll be fine.

[Team Infiniti]

Show up with a roller cam in a 1980 car and I would be a grumbling if there were no pts assigned, SR heads? Show me where they came stock on something within the vpi list or pay the points, might as well go aluminum for the same pts. Stock scat crank? eh, might be fine, aftermarket rods? Not so much but proving it would be hard. Pistons? Hope they match the declared engine. 

 

The whole point is working with what one has or paying pts for stronger/lighter etc. Where does it end, stock geometry this or that because the original design is dated or weak? Yes it sounds funny spending more (or more time) doing it this way but in the long run it also keeps things more level.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Team Infiniti

[Throoster]

On 5/15/2022 at 11:17 AM, Bandit said:

Saying a guy can't use aftermarket parts, even if they are replacement parts, would seem to open a can of worms. Is anyone buying their pistons from BMW when doing a rebuild? (I really don't know, but doubt it.)

I am not saying people can not use aftermarket parts. I was pointing out most of those named manufacturers are not OEM equivalent, but rather performance replacement parts. My reference to "stock" is OEM equivalent.

 

If a winning car shows up with an aftermarket branded block/heads, etc.. it will most likely be subjected to increased scrutiny. An example, as I recall most passenger car SBC motors (including Camaros) were 2 bolt mains, good luck finding an aftermarket block without 4 bolt mains. I know you could call it a certian model to get around this, but not all years would work. Prob easy to check, if not a bit messy, with a  borescope thru the drainhole.  Some of that stuff is OEM equivalent, but you better have the documentation to back it up.

 

I totally agree that the 4.8 LS motor would be the way to go. Easy on the swap points, newer design, fuel injected (or strong aftermarket traditional carb/intake support if that's you thing). Prob easy 350-400 hp with decent economy with a small amount of free tuning. Also if you need to clean up the bore with a .040 over I think you end up at 5.2l, which may have certain advantages in a newly formed endurance series.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Throoster
spelling/grammer

[enginerd]

23 hours ago, Bandit said:

Saying a guy can't use aftermarket parts, even if they are replacement parts, would seem to open a can of worms. Is anyone buying their pistons from BMW when doing a rebuild? (I really don't know, but doubt it.)

The typical BMW m20 (e30 engine) rebuild starts with finding a good block / crank / pistons from the 1980s and replacing the wear parts. Or you buy a set of good pistons on ebay to go with your good block & crank.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255525891123?epid=1756598717&hash=item3b7e87ac33:g:wZgAAOSwP2hidskr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255384488097?epid=1911186658&hash=item3b761a08a1:g:9YYAAOSwDEBiCREM

Edited May 16, 2022 by enginerd

[Bandit]

13 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Show up with a roller cam in a 1980 car and I would be a grumbling if there were no pts assigned

Who said anything about no points for the cam?

 

Or are you saying a late 80's 638 block in a 1980 is too much for you?

 

If so, please explain why.

 

The only reason to use it is it already has roller cam provisions. You can put a roller in a pre 85 block as well you know. It just costs more. As in money, not points. Points are exactly the same.

 

 

[Ray Franck]

Billy I would officially like to welcome you to Champcar.  Please contact the Tech Desk for any and all Tech questions. You can leave me your number and I would gladly call, as from what I have read here has bound to be confusing, is outdated or about 50% wrong. 

  Again welcome