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Limiting Tire Size Proposal, 2023 Board requesting feedback.


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Email just sent out to our membership email list.
 
ChampCar Members,
 
The Board of Directors has been monitoring ongoing membership discussions in regards to tires, as well as the overall performance tire market. In order to address a portion of the ongoing speed and cost increases as a result of tires, the Board wishes to enact a tire width limit for 2023. Since there was no petition specifically related to this, we want to be proactive and let the members know about this plan.
 
This rule is similar to Petition 18 (7Y, 25N, 10M) this year, which requested a maximum wheel width of 10.5". Instead of limiting wheel width, the BOD wants to look at a tire width rule which would set a maximum width at 285. Since tire size is marked on all tires, this is an easier measure to enforce without tools. It also allows teams running wheels in the 10.5-11.5" range to still use those wheels with stretched 285 tires.
 
We feel this will help regulate both cost and speed, while minimally impacting teams. We understand this is of greater concern for the larger (D-Class) cars, however, a review of current tire usage showed tires above the 285 widths were not commonly used. There are multiple choices of tires to run in a 285-width tire for those cars currently running wider tires.
 
We will discuss this petition at the Annual Board Meeting Tuesday at 8:30 PM Eastern, May 24, 2022, including proposing this tire width limit. We want to give the membership time to review and comment on this proposed rule, so there are no surprise changes not directly in line with petition proposals. We will leave the member's comments open for 30 days to give everyone time to comment on the proposed rule change.
 
Proposed rule change: Tire width not to exceed 285.
 
In addition to the above-proposed rule, the BOD also directly approved the following petitions related to tires for 2023:
  • Per Petition 30, the BOD approved a limit to 18" or smaller diameter wheels. (Member vote 9Y, 29N, 7M)
  • Per Petitions 15&16, during a tire change pit stop, all tools must be hand or battery powered. (Member vote 29Y, 8N, 5M and 20Y, 14N, 8M)
  • Per Petition 22, during a tire change pit stop only three tools may be used: 1 Jack, 1 Torque Wrench, and 1 Lug Tool (Either battery or hand-powered). (Member vote 18Y, 13N, 11M)
 
For member input and feedback, please send an email to board@champcar.org
 
Thank you,
ChampCar Board of Directors
copy of email sent to the CCES email list https://conta.cc/3Nvpgds
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It's a shame so few members take the time to look at the petitions and vote.

And if I may ask two of these proposals for change were voted NO by the membership yet the BoD has elected to implement them. Does the BoD truely represent the Club Members?

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I posted this on Facebook and am sharing here as well.  This has been a topic previously discussed and it seams that they have been ignored.  

 

(please forgive the formatting below it is a cut and paste from my phone)
 

our team is 100% opposed to this proposed tire size restriction.  This is clearly an unfair restriction being placed on American cars and will have a negative impact on the diversity of cars in our series. 

 

This new rule will still allow an 2500lb E30 to run a 285 tire (all while using a wheel 2x wider than what was originally available for that car and requiring extensive body flairs to cover then), and now make larger (heavier) American cars (Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, etc…) weighing +3,000 who currently use larger tires on a factory specified wheel to reduce our tire widths? This is not fair.  

 

We have run a 315/35-17 for more than 5 years and our speeds have only increased due to driver skill level.  As far as costs go our team will now have to spend more on tires than we did before.  We use to use nitro nT05 tires that were very affordable, now we will have to step up to 18” wheels and spend more on tires.  

 

Please stop trying to fix something that is not broken.  There are far better solutions that have been suggested over time on the forum.  

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One more thing to note you cost savings proposal is not correct.  We can buy a 315/34-17 for $265 each that will last us one 14hr race and one 7 or 8hr race.  
 

titerack’s cheapest 285/35-18 200tw tire is $343 and Maxxis =$289 /ea.  these tires will last only 1 event so how is this cheaper?  Oh ya our team will have to buy 4 hew wheels to step up to 18” wheels so for sure thanks for saving my $$$$$

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I run 245/40/18s on my Firebird...   I've considered 275/35 since I should still be able to fit them on my 9.5" rims. 

 

I don't really care, I'm having hard enough time getting a engine rebuilt properly so I can just come and run.

 

If you were going to make a rule, would it not make sense that is a rule that limits everyone equally?  For example, our rule on fuel has also been stock +2 gallons.  That to me seems pretty fair straight across the board...  why not something for tires?  I have zero idea how, I've given this zero thought, just throwing thoughts out there, maybe say width of stock tire size can be no more than 2.5"???

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I am not impacted by this proposed rule. Full disclosure.  I run 285 and 255 tires. 2900lbs race weight (full tank & driver). 

 

I like the tire change rules. That will limit tire changes. 

 

I think limiting tire width will penalize the American iron so I disagree with it.  If you are going to limit tire size it should be related to weight. 

 

The correct direction for the series would be a spec tire or two. ie maxxis and RS4s. Or Maxxis, RS4s, and continentals.  re: Low wear tires. 

 

IMO The RE71RS is going to cause problems for the series starting next month. 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, veris said:

 

The correct direction for the series would be a spec tire or two. ie maxxis and RS4s. Or Maxxis, RS4s, and continentals.  re: Low wear tires. 

 

To build off this idea if it was considered, my Firebird kills Maxxis and RS4 like tires, I'm running the good ole Dunlop Star Specs because I can get 2 weekends out of them and still have some for track days. 

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I'm not impacted by this rule either but I fail to see the need for it.

 

If this is intended to reduce the tire cost and the series truly sees a need to implement a rule, restrict the number of tires used by whatever means makes the most sense: i.e. tire changes or tire brands.

Edited by mender
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Sorta feeling trolled.  This is the opposite of  "encouraging variety and parity with all chasing an overall win".  If you absolutely must do something, ban the super sticky icky tires then.  That affects everyone.

 

'Nother miata owner here.  This is weird, I don't agree with it.

 

 

 

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If the BoC wants to slow cars down, tire widths need to be related to the size of the car. Pretty basic concept. As already noted - by everyone! - a general tire limit only restricts the biggest cars and does nothing to limit the usual pointy end cars.

 

Barring the most obvious and effective method of using car weight to determine tire width, the classes A - D could be used as they at least approximate the general weight groupings. 

Edited by mender
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This appears to be a thinly veiled GBU performance rule, not a cost savings rule as it has been presented. This does not affect costs for >99% of the field. I don't know of any other front-running teams who would be affected. Don't try to make a rule to slow down an IMSA team throwing IMSA resources at a ChampCar build, just accept that they will win a bunch. I feel for other big cars who aren't running away with races that will be hurt by this and will end up spending more money as a result (as indicated by posts above).

 

Also, what's the point of the 18" wheel rule? I'm not aware of any performance gains from larger wheels, I just don't see any point in throwing in this rule.

Edited by enginerd
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1 hour ago, mender said:

If the BoC wants to slow cars down, tire widths need to be related to the size/Weight of the car.

That should be obvious to anyone running a racing series.

 

It would be simpler, and more upfront, to just ban domestic rear drive cars as those are about the only cars this supposed cost saving rule hits. The vast majority already have fuel range issues so slowing them down even more just makes running one pointless.

 

btw-a 245 on a 2100 Miata/E30 is the equivalent of a 345 on a 3000 pound car. 

Edited by Bandit
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Bandit, the v8 are so fun to race. I know they only have a chance at the big tracks where we can use the hp. (Hope to go to one someday and see.) Everything about 2 miles and under in my opinion is a miata momentum track. It is hard to beat them buzzing past you in the corners without a ton of money in the suspension.  Still it's tough. It's not the car that's the problem it's the tracks. I understand this well. Weight,  Tires and fuel puts me behind at the start of each race. I still come knowing this. Watching the other series it's the same thing and problem. If I didn't like it I would come. I only get 3 chances to race locally (4 to 5 hour drive) from Dallas Texas. All small tracks. One is swarming with miatas. Not many of us V8s in the series already. Would help the most if they gave us bigger tanks (16 gallon is my tank) would equal it out maybe. Not my call. Champ car the place and price for wheel to wheel racing. Best people too.

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I like the tire change rules (as long as we are allowed a jackstand as well...)

 

The other rules seem like garbage that is solving a problem that doesn't exist and only hurts a few handful of cars for no apparent overall gain.

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21 minutes ago, 333 Kinkle said:

Bandit, the v8 are so fun to race.

To be clear, I don't want big iron banned. (I figured that was obvious)

 

My comment was rather snarky as the BoD is simply targeting big iron with this proposed rule. They even say so with this; "We feel this will help regulate both cost and speed, while minimally impacting teams. We understand this is of greater concern for the larger (D-Class) cars, however, a review of current tire usage showed tires above the 285 widths were not commonly used."

 

It only effects some D class cars. Those with American nameplates and V8 engines. 

 

It should be noted this group of cars is not represented on the BoD.

 


 

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Bandit, I knew you were being snarky. Just stating the problem with my V8 car. Don't think it's fixable with the variety of good platforms and small trscks. I didn't know what I was doing when I got started. Seen a Craigslist add. Bought the mustang with everything needed and came racing. It was just that easy. Mistakes galore. After 4 or 5 year know what I know now. Probably wouldn't have bought the stang and gone another route.  Too heavy, brakes like crap, turns worse and tank is too small but, I would not change a thing. I can work on it and parts are super cheap. They don't know it, O Reilly is my sponser with there return policy. Slowly have gotten faster as the car has progressed with small modifications each year. I love getting in the straights and just pulling away from most cars but the corners i get passed. Big tracks are my only chance to even get close to a podium (probably not, I just don't race that hard) I am always prepared to come home with a waded up car. I  consider it as a hobby and would start over but, not another mustang. 

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What exactly is the board trying to avoid that makes it such a hard task?

 

I know they don’t want to banish appendicular tire (disagree)

 

For some reason, it’s believed to be a safety issue restricting how many tires can be changed a pitstop (disagree) Simply add a time penalty.

 

The thought process restricting tools is fine but honestly,Even if you got rid of powered guns, it’s not going to slow down a well prepared team.

 

Restricting big fat tires does nothing, it may affect a couple of teams… a lighter car on big sticky tires will be fast, and could even be argued cost saving. 
 

discuss

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8 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

What exactly is the board trying to avoid that makes it such a hard task?

 

I know they don’t want to banish appendicular tire (disagree)

 

For some reason, it’s believed to be a safety issue restricting how many tires can be changed a pitstop (disagree) Simply add a time penalty.

 

The thought process restricting tools is fine but honestly,Even if you got rid of powered guns, it’s not going to slow down a well prepared team.

 

Restricting big fat tires does nothing, it may affect a couple of teams… a lighter car on big sticky tires will be fast, and could even be argued cost saving. 
 

discuss

Instead of playing wack a mole and banning tires, just have an approved list. A new tire comes out it doesn't get added until there is evidence it meets similar wear characteristics to the approved tires.

Maxxis, RS4, 615K, GSC, Star Spec, etc. Everyone knows the long lasting choices and having choices eliminates supply issues.

 

Jack comes over the wall, 10 minute pit stop. Simple. Gas stops are essentially self policed. No reason tire changes can't as well. Go behind the wall, same ten minutes so people don't try to be shady changing in the cold pits.

 

Limiting tire size to 285 is simply a middle finger to domestic cars. Meanwhile 2000 pound Miata's with 255's are kosher. Comical.

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

We mostly agree here, the jack and One get 10 minutes? Disagree, some other way not using the jack as a barometer to add time and I would agree 100%

 

Unfortunately the series has stated they will not ban/approve a tire and for some reason The board feels special reluctance to add time for multiple tires which seems to be about the only way…

I'm just using "jack" as a metaphor. Change tires and it's a 10 minute stop. An exception can be made for a flat if need be. Same for the front drive guys that swap front to rear. If tires come over the wall, ten minutes minimum.

 

Another series runs a single spec tire and has rising entries. Having a menu of tires to chose from, most of which (Maxxis the only outlier?) are available from the sponsor shouldn't be an issue unless TR gets upset about selling fewer gumballs to a select few competitors versus RS4/615k/etc. They don't seem to mind Maxxis shod cars...

 

eta-It should be noted with the "Long life tire menu" policing tire changes would not be necessary. One or the other accomplishes the same thing.

Edited by Bandit
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  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, Snake said:

Another step in the wrong direction.   Post #3 is dead on and why this will move forward with who this effects and who it doesn't.  

 

51 minutes ago, Bandit said:
51 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Limiting tire size to 285 is simply a middle finger to domestic cars. Meanwhile 2000 pound Miata's with 255's are kosher. Comical.

 

what you’ll find surprising is that this proposal came from a team that will be affected by it. I don’t think they considered the effect it would have in other teams beside themselves. 
I hope the BoD doesn’t make the same mistake. 
edit: dear friend and grammar consultant @mender - did I get my effect and affects correct? ☺️@mender

Edited by mcoppola
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17 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

 

 

what you’ll find surprising is that this proposal came from a team that will be affected by it. I don’t think they considered the effect it would have in other teams beside themselves. 
I hope the BoD doesn’t make the same mistake. 
edit: dear friend and grammar consultant @mender - did I get my effect and affects correct? ☺️@mender

Yes, indeedy! That was an effective use of both words, you achieved maximum affect! :)

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