Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Technical Advisory Committee

This seems to be a popular topic.  Instead of talking about it in 37 other threads, lets chat about it here.  If you already made a post on this that you feel is particularly relevant, please move it over so this can be a one-stop search for discussions on this.

 

 

In 2009 tire mfg's were a bit more "realistic" about what a 180tw tire was and how long it lasted.  This was a de-facto limit to cost, speed, and stress on suspension parts.

In 2022, this has changed and there are some pretty fast wearing 180tw tires.  This has added cost and speed.

 

Full disclosure first my team started on RT615k and switched to RS4's, but I have a set of Falkens to try at CMP because I feel that we are giving up speed to a few other teams without them.

 

That being said, I don't think its a secret that I have wanted to address this on the basis of cost for a few years.  

 

For various reasons and with various BOD's that has not been able to be voted in.  I have put forth a few suggestions that have been "Compromise" indirect methods to address this subject, some popular, some very unpopular.

 

If CCES were to move towards modifying rule 4.8, what would this look like in YOUR words, and what are the pros/cons of that change.

 

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My recommendation is a spec tire, tire white list, or tire black list.  The spec tire is my least favorite option as it reduces tire options for price, sizing, and availability. A tire black list is probably easier to maintain, but a white list would prevent new tires issues. 

 

My white list would be: Maxxis VR1, Falken RT615s, Nitto NT05, Hankook RS4, Dunlop DRZIII, Contential ExtreContact Force and any tire over 300 treadware for rain tires. 

 

IMO the new kuhmo v730 and the Cooper RS3R tires would require some review. v730s are very new but priced very well; I hope to try them in July. I'm have some difficulty getting the RS3Rs to last more than 6 hours so I'm becoming skeptical of them. 

 

My black list would be: A052, Rival/Rival S, RE71R, RE71RS, RT660, Nankang CR-1. With Khumo v730 and Cooper RS3R under review. 

 

Alternatively you could use a 3rd party to determine the white and black list. Grassroots Motorsports did a good job here.  I agree with most of their list. Blacklist the Super 200s or white list the Endurance 200s. I think I'd be more apt to blacklist.

Ultimate track tire guide | 200tw, 100tw, street-legal track, R-comp | Articles | Grassroots Motorsports

 

 

 

 

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I support the blacklist, it achieves the goal of eliminating quick wearing tires the most directly.  I prefer it over the white list because it seems to be much lower overhead.  The goal as I understand it isn't to make everyone run some small set of acceptable tires, the goal is keep teams from running tires that the community have determined do not meet the spirit of the series.  

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4.8.1.2 Effective 1/1/2023 the following tire compounds will be disallowed from ChampCar Podium competition but will be allowed in EC (Exception Class). Kumho Ecsta V720 ACR, BFGoodrich Rival S 1.5, Yokohama Advan A052, Bridgestone RE-71R.  Compounds which have a significant performance advantage and high wear rates may be added to this list.

^ My petition from last year.

Another way:


The following compounds are approved for regular competition use through 1/1/2024:

Hankook Ventus RS4

Maxxis VR-1
BFGoodrich g-Force Rival

Falken Azenis RT615K+
Continental Extreme Contact Sport

 

The following compounds are prohibited from regular competition but may be used in exception class (EC😞

Kuhmo Ecsta V720 ACR
BFGoodrich Rival S 1.5
Yokohama Advan AO52
Bridgestone RE-71R (RS)
 

All other compounds which are DOT legal and the UTQG treadwear rated at 180 or higher are legal for regular competition, however may be added to the prohibited list if there is a significant performance advantage and/or significant wear compared to the approved tire list.  Additions to the approved and disapproved tire list will be reviewed quarterly by the TAC.  Subtractions from the approved and disapproved tire list will be reviewed annually by the TAC.

 

Edited by LuckyKid
  • Like 8
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with a blacklist is when a new Supergrip3000 comes out and some people jump on it to gain an advantage. And then when it's learned the Supergrip3000 is only good for 4 hours before its into the cords, not meeting the criteria of an endurance tire, CC then has the issue of ticking off the teams that bought stacks of Supergrips. Add in the long lead times for rule changes and the Supergrip3000 will be legal for a year or more before being put on a blacklist, allowing teams that love to burn through tires a decided advantage while forcing teams that that really don't want to use multiple sets of tires over a weekend to do so to remain competitive. Basically negating the whole point of the rule.

 

On the flip side, a whitelist avoids this issue. Waiting 6 months or more to get some good data on a new tire before making a decision penalizes no one. *If a manufacturer wants to speed up the process they can run/sponsor/supply a car or two in EC to allow CC to verify durability*

 

Suggested tires that match up with the TAC's judgement, along with the NT05, as a whitelist;

 

Hankook Ventus RS4

Dunlop DRZIII

Maxxis VR-1

Falken Azenis RT615K+
Continental Extreme Contact Sport

Nitto NT05

Goodyear Supercar 3 (NOT the 3r)

Cooper RS3r *Wear verified on something heavier than a sub 2000lb rollerskate perhaps?

Any 300tw and up tire for rains if desired

 

Eight different tires should preclude supply issues and there may be other that meet the desired durability. Toyo R1R's? I know nothing of them. Valino VR08GP? Same but reported by Grassroots to wear like iron. As mentioned above Kumho v730.

 

Edited by Bandit
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, roadracer4life said:

Maybe have semi annual membership vote on specific tires.

I love the vote idea but how many voted on petitions or even BOD for that matter. I think the TAC boys and if any girls can sort the list out well.

 

I do agree on a black list and know Roy has tested everything that is round, well at least when he started the test, and had a good list with his petition.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say that I am more a fan of a backlist as opposed to a whitelist.  My main opposition to the whitelist is what if a team wants to use a tire that does comply with the general rules and it is not on the whitelist or the blacklist?.  

 

So a far out there idea would be a straight limit on both the number of tires used and the tires allowed.  ( I posted this idea is another thread)

 

Since we all want to have a completive, cost effective and safe race maybe we look at trying to keep tire changing out of standard practices and encourage the use of one set of tires per race. 

Prior to each race an official would walk through the grid and put a mark on the tires of each car.  At the end of the race, when the cars are in impound part of the inspection will be to confirm the mark is still on the tires.  If they are not there, then they are disqualified.     

 

My overall thought would be as follows:

 

Participants in all classes must use DOT approved, non-competition, treaded (nongrooved) street tires (no competition radials, no R compound or shaved tread) with a treadwear rating of 180 or higher. Eligible tires must be: a) in sufficient supply; and b) commercially available to the general public. Tires will be required to pass a technical inspection. Any modifications to tires will be unacceptable.

 

All competitors will be allowed to have a maximum of 4 spare wheels in pits at all times (one wheel per corner to account for directional tires and different wheel sizes).  The tires mounted on the entered vehicle will be inspected and painted at Tech with event markings, so any tire changes are easy to spot by Champcar officials.  If there is a failure team may use a spare tire once approved by Champcar official and new marking is applied to tire.  At post race impound if vehicle does not have properly marked tires they will be disqualified.

 

Ineligible tires include (insert blacklist) and other models that do not meet the above stated criteria. If in doubt, please contact competition officials before buying tires -

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, smitham32803 said:

I would say that I am more a fan of a backlist as opposed to a whitelist.  My main opposition to the whitelist is what if a team wants to use a tire that does comply with the general rules and it is not on the whitelist or the blacklist?.  

 

Make a request and have the tire white listed then. 

 

I'm not aware of any unicorn tire that is cheaper, faster, or wears like iron that isn't on the list, but I'm not opposed to it being added. 

 

I can guarantee you no one will oppose the addition of a General Tire addition based on the current compounds. Note: I am not denigrating GT, they are an excellent tire company that make great street tires (I am running them now), but they have nothing I would endurance race. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not advocating for or against any of these ideas, but I do want to remind everyone that ‘perfect’ is the enemy of ‘good enough’. If the board decides on a blacklist, then the very real situation of a new fast tire coming out and being usable for a year is not a big deal. So what? It gets banned and it won’t be usable next year. Being usable for a year is really nothing compared to the current situation.

 

Perhaps three tires get banned and agreement can’t be reached on three more ‘gray area’ tires that are fast but maybe not too fast and aren’t banned. So what? You have at least banned the three fastest. Other tires can be added in the future.

 

Actually, while I’m not going to advocate for or against a black list, I will say that spec tire is a bad idea, and a whitelist is also bad. Go with either a black list or don’t pursue tire restrictions. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1.

What is the problem we are trying to solve?

a, Is it teams swapping 8 tires DURING the race?

b, Is it teams running 1-2 sets during a weekend?

 

I think A is a problem, B is not a problem. Even with RS-4 I would start a weekend on fresh tires.

 

We run the Nankang CR-S on a 2300 lbs Miata on 255s tires. One set lasts a day for sure, probably a weekend. We also got good wear on re71r. Never tried the A052.

 

I think the key is wide tires on a light car. If you are running 225 tires on a 2600 lbs car then take points so you can fit 255s

 

2.

I run a spec series with a spec tire, works great until the spec tire is out of stock. 

 

 

Why wouldn't the tire tool rule solve this? If it takes 5mins to change your tires then that advantage really goes away.

 

 

 

 

Edited by turbogrill
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

1.

What is the problem we are trying to solve?

a, Is it teams swapping 8 tires DURING the race?

b, Is it teams running 1-2 sets during a weekend?

 

I think A is a problem, B is not a problem. Even with RS-4 I would start a weekend on fresh tires.

 

We run the Nankang CR-S on a 2300 lbs Miata on 255s tires. One set lasts a day for sure, probably a weekend. We also got good wear on re71r. Never tried the A052.

 

I think the key is wide tires on a light car. If you are running 225 tires on a 2600 lbs car then take points so you can fit 255s

 

2.

I run a spec series with a spec tire, works great until the spec tire is out of stock. 

 

 

Why wouldn't the tire tool rule solve this? If it takes 5mins to change your tires then that advantage really goes away.

 

 

 

 


Great point.

Additionally, are we trying to reign in speed creep or number of tires used within a race?

I feel like a tires-per-stop or time-per-tire rule addresses the main point being danced around here...  It is detrimental to average speed over the course of a race to run tires that need replaced every 4 hours *IF* the per lap advantage is erased by a min time on pit lane.  I, for one, don't care if a team wants to drop an extra 2k on tires.  Kudo's to them for stimulating the economy.

I do care if there's a 2+s/lap advantage they are gaining by pouring said money into their consumables that my team and others like us cannot afford.

EDIT: this seems simple - establish a minimum time on pit lane per tire changed.  No tires can be changed under FCY *unless* deemed by Champcar official in the pit box during the stop that the change is done due to damage.  Flat tires due to cording/excessive wear are not "damage". 

Edited by BollingerChump
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the idea of a black list is very workable and sensible for the series.  It would solve a good share of the issues with teams spending a large amount of money on tires every race weekend.

 

I have also been an advocate of a rule that would not allow more than one tire change at a fuel stop.   If you want to change more than one tire it has to be another stop.   

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m fine with whatever BOD comes up with. Heck if someone wants to buy me a set of the ( slowest whitelist tires) I’ll run them next race. 😀 Note: our NC was on RS4, previous NC was on Maxxis. Almost forgot-245/40R17 please!

Edited by scottyk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee

The counter-arguments against "time per tire" or "number of tire" rules that have been discussed:

 

1. If you penalize tire changing too hard, teams will be incentivized to buy a new set of tires for each day to avoid the "risk" of starting on used tires, therefore driving up costs.

2. If teams are allowed to change 1 sticky tire each stop, effectively nothing has really been done

3. FWD teams are penalized more since their front tires do more work and wear faster than RWD

4. The ever-present - "this is another indirect action to address the problem - just ban the sticky tires"

 

 

42 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

1.

What is the problem we are trying to solve?

a, Is it teams swapping 8 tires DURING the race?

b, Is it teams running 1-2 sets during a weekend?

 

I think A is a problem, B is not a problem. Even with RS-4 I would start a weekend on fresh tires.

 

 

Agreed, good point and this needs to be "agreed" upon before moving forward.

 

On the problem statement, this is what I have been working around since sending to the other BOD a while back.

Quote
The goal, as I imagine it, is to reduce the performance advantage money can buy to a reasonable amount. 
Champcar's mission statement should be "Affordable racing" and to me that means that a low budget team should have an equal opportunity of success when compared to a high budget team.
 
Money will always buy advantages - Either more testing, smarter people helping, shortened learning curve, etc - and nothing the sanctioning body does can prevent that.  
 
One of the biggest costs that has been brought up over and over is Tires.   
Is there even a problem that needs to be addressed?  If so, what is that problem?
 

Is it a problem that a team starts each race on a new set of tires? 

Is it a problem that a team puts on a set of rain tires?

Is it a problem that a team changes tire(s) at every pit stop?  

Is it a problem that a team's weekend tire budget exceeds other teams weekend total budget?  

 
Can a reasonable petition or rule change be submitted that prevents "egregious" tire spending? 
How do we draw the line at something "reasonable" as each team's expectation of reasonableness is different? 
 
I've only had one perspective in ChampCar, so Maybe I am not aware of everything happening.
I've been told recently that some teams see my team as "excessive" so its entirely possible I'm missing the point.

 

 

 

So my position is clear, this is my personal opinion on the matter after working through it a few times:

 

Is it a problem that a team starts each race on a new set of tires?  No
Is it a problem that a team puts on a set of rain tires? No
Is it a problem that a team changes tires at every pit stop?  Yes
Is it a problem that a team's weekend tire budget exceeds other teams weekend total budget?  Yes
 
Based on the above, I have subconsciously determined that a team using ~8 tires for a double-8 weekend seems reasonable to me.  (assuming 1.5-2x entry fee depending on car model and tire size, $2-2.5k in tires for a weekend)
 
I know personally my team does not do this.  We generally use 1 set of RS4 for 2-3 races, which works out to 400/weekend.
We DO have a set of rain tires though. The wheels and tires cost ~1.5k per car capital cost.
If you include the tires only ($800), that increases our budget some.  We have only used the rain tires twice, and in both cases we did not "use them up" so they are still in good shape for future use, so I do not know how to depreciate them on a per-race basis.  Lets guess 3 races as worst case, so my anticipated tire budget is $633/weekend. 
 
I know that's on the Low side of where we are currently at as a series. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This is the analysis I did on the tire suggestions presented so far and things that haven't been tried yet, as of a few months ago:
Quote
Previous Petitions that are denied and my understanding as of why:
 
- Limit tires changed per stop to 1.  Denied as this could lead to a team not changing a damaged or flat spotted tire to avoid a penalty.  Also does not really address fast wearing tires since a team could change one tire per stop and make it through a race with fresh tires.
- Only hand tools to change tires.  Denied as no one wanted to use t-handles again
- Only 4 tires over the wall.  Denied as this doesn't really slow down teams with paid pit crew or plenty of members.  Makes changing tires harder but with a 5 minute pit window the time penalty to change a tire is not generally race critical
- No air guns, only battery tools.  Maybe mixed up with the hand tool request?  Denied
- Limit Tire width to xxx.  Denied as it unfairly punishes heavier/larger/more powerful cars more.
- No fuel and tires at same stop.  Denied as it could result in unsafe tires returning to track to avoid an extra stop.
- Increase pit time if tires are changed.  Denied as it also penalizes teams who might want to start on halfway-used tires.  I.e. it incentivizes starting every event on brand new tires, even in a double-8 style weekend. 
- Limit total number of tires used per weekend, based on race length to X tires.  Denied, not sure why?
- List of approved tires - Denied
- List of disapproved tires - Denied
 
 
Potential ideas which have not been petitioned yet but have merit, Imo
 
Limit total weekend cost of tires to $$$
Downsides:
Cost of tires is variable and this doesn't provide a concrete limit.  Hard to enforce
May need to vary depending on race length.
inflation
Limit tire diameter to 17"
Would stop use of 18" and 19" tires which are pretty uncommon, but are more expensive and available in wider sizes.  17" tires are usually not available much past 275 in "performance" flavors, with a few exceptions.
Downsides:
Teams may already have 18" wheels, an/or want 18's for gearing reasons?  
May artificially hurt teams with newer/heavier platforms?
Does this curb cost as 17x255 a052 are still $260 each
Does nothing to slow down teams using smaller tires.
 
Limit tire changes to battery only tools
This would get rid of the negative perception from a team (I think only 1) using pro-grade guns
Safety from hoses?
Safety from high-pressure canisters?
Downsides:
Some teams may use commercial/homeowner grade air tools and a portable pancake compressor in the pits?   Pancake compressor still needed to refill tires.  Only 1 or 2 teams are known for using nitro-guns in the pit,
doesn't directly address tire costs
 
Limit total tires used per race to X
Would stop super soft tires being used, or swapping out tires that have worn for "stickers" to gain that last bit of advantage.  
downsides:
Enforcement - who will monitor?  Would have to be member-policed, and would only really catch major offenders (which might be what we want?)  If a team does a 4 tire stop early and changes a flat late, is that OK?
During a rain/dry race, this means you have no dry spares unless this number is >8
During a mixed race, it would prevent use of rains unless the number is at least 8
 
List of approved tires.  Not SPEC tire since it will give some choice, but can limit to say Maxxis or RS4 plus any tire over 260 treadwear (to allow rains).  
This would prevent use of champ selected "expensive" compounds.
Downsides:
How would this work with tire-rack?  We want to keep them happy.
Some teams may have a car/wheel/brake package built around a specific tire compound or size that is negatively affected by this?

 

 

It really does seem like a "blacklist" that can be updated at any time for a "new supersticker3000" is the most attractive option.  Simplest enforcement since we already enforce a "blacklist" based on 180tw so really nothing needs to change.

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, enginerd said:

Not advocating for or against any of these ideas, but I do want to remind everyone that ‘perfect’ is the enemy of ‘good enough’. If the board decides on a blacklist, then the very real situation of a new fast tire coming out and being usable for a year is not a big deal. So what? It gets banned and it won’t be usable next year. Being usable for a year is really nothing compared to the current situation.

 

Perhaps three tires get banned and agreement can’t be reached on three more ‘gray area’ tires that are fast but maybe not too fast and aren’t banned. So what? You have at least banned the three fastest. Other tires can be added in the future.

 

Actually, while I’m not going to advocate for or against a black list, I will say that spec tire is a bad idea, and a whitelist is also bad. Go with either a black list or don’t pursue tire restrictions. 

 

on the grey area, dang straight thats already an issue. If we want some process or rule (like idk the swap cal, VPI for hundreds of cars, points for any mod), you take compromises to get a system in thats better than what you have. aka continuous improvement folks, not all at once perfect improvement. the tire thing has been bantered about for 1.5+ years now? all want something, but no perfect solution has come up so nothing has been done. thank you for bring up a good reminder in continuous improvement goals not perfection.

 

also, instead of blacklist, maybe call it the "EC only tire list".

 

as for new tires, something thats always happening:

 

Add a new tire clause that states "any new tire is automatically on the black list for 3 or 6 months (or whatever is reasonable to the BOD/TAC/CEO) after full public release date. The tire manufactures website stating the time of release is the date used or when the day tire rack lists its on their site, which ever is earliest is the date used".  no more chasing the newest hard to get tire for speed and having to wait for a while to get it on the list. it starts there and then the powers that be can look at data from other sources to see if its a go/no go

 

also any added to the list, save tires that have been released and by clause on the list, should also be phased out over time,  not instantly: so  3 or 6 months (or whatever is reasonable to the BOD/TAC/CEO) after its added to the list is when it becomes an EC tire. let people attempt to use up stock or tires that are already shipped. if a tire is already under the new tire clause, it can get added to the list and its instant.

 

any tire taken off the list is able to be used without auto EC next event following the change.

 

 

 

rule idea:

 

"All cars must run tires with a 180tw or greater rating.  tire acceptable for EC only are listed on a separate file, see website file XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX for this list. When a tire is added to the EC only tire file, the tire will become  EC only 6 months after it is added.  This date of enforcement will be listed in the file. when a new 180tw or greater tire is released to the market, it will be acceptable for only EC until  6 months after the release date or when the tire is added to Tirerack.com, which ever is the earliest date. If new to market tire is added to the EC only file, it will the date of enforcement will be the date added. "

 

pros - gets the $ multi set gummy tires out of champ. does not penalize a team for having stock of said tire(s), as a phase out date lets them get used up or sold to other teams that can run them before the phase out date. provides tiny incentive to come out and use a sets of tires up if its getting phased out.  preemptive on getting ahead of the tire types we dont want with a auto EC on new releases for a period of time. this way, champ doesnt have a fun situation like coopers/contis/RE71rs where trying to get the limited new hotness is an advantage and can be used without data to say if the tire meets what champ wants, endurance tires that fit in with others currently in use. the clause gives the "powers that be" time to get it on the EC only list full time so they dont have to be daily/weekly/monthly adding new tires to the list. still lets acceptable ones on after the clause time. personally, i leave the contents of EC only tire list to more experienced hands. still allows a rain set and a dry set without a penalty for changing.

 

cons-add another thing for the volunteers staff to do. this is a big deal, they all have jobs outside of this and its 1 more thing to vote/keep up with. the new tire clause also means less data if its EC only to start. how do you make the big call to let it go or it needs to stay EC only? EC phase in date has a big hole when it comes to the national or regional championships. would you want a known EC only tire allowed for the championship?  idk if  the following would piss some off to close it or let a known EC only tire stay because its not quite phased into EC only.  "for national and regional championships, any car running a tire from the EC only list will be EC regardless of phase in date"

Edited by chbright
edit out old chump name :(
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem this would solve for my team would be so I could compete at the front end (in terms of tire performance) while utilizing 1 single set of tires for a race weekend. If I have to buy a second set of tires/wheels for a race weekend, I’ve just taken away another race that I would have liked to run later in the year. 
 

Now there is also the point where people with lots of money will of course spend it on multiple sets of sticky rubber and are basically buying speed for 0 points which is also not good. 
 

If a whitelist of approved tires is created, there is very little incentive for a team to swap multiple sets of tires throughout their weekend. If they do, it doesn’t look nearly as bad for the series and the midfield/backfield runners. 
 

I just want to do more races competitively! If a tire rule allows me to compete with similar cars with much larger budgets and allows me to get an extra race every year, I would be a very happy team manager. 
 

As a team with 2 cars that race Champcar, anything that reduces operating costs is looked upon with happiness. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cowboys647 said:

The problem this would solve for my team would be so I could compete at the front end (in terms of tire performance) while utilizing 1 single set of tires for a race weekend. If I have to buy a second set of tires/wheels for a race weekend, I’ve just taken away another race that I would have liked to run later in the year. 
 

Now there is also the point where people with lots of money will of course spend it on multiple sets of sticky rubber and are basically buying speed for 0 points which is also not good. 
 

If a whitelist of approved tires is created, there is very little incentive for a team to swap multiple sets of tires throughout their weekend. If they do, it doesn’t look nearly as bad for the series and the midfield/backfield runners. 
 

I just want to do more races competitively! If a tire rule allows me to compete with similar cars with much larger budgets and allows me to get an extra race every year, I would be a very happy team manager. 
 

As a team with 2 cars that race Champcar, anything that reduces operating costs is looked upon with happiness. 

I'm curious, if the front running cars are already on Maxxis & RS4's how will this rule make you more competitive? Example: Viseral-RS4, RBANK- Maxxis, Premium Dudes - Maxxis, Pinkies Out - RS4's, GMS-RS4, Two Brothers - RS4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

3 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:
4 hours ago, turbogrill said:

1.

What is the problem we are trying to solve?

a, Is it teams swapping 8 tires DURING the race?

b, Is it teams running 1-2 sets during a weekend?

 

I think A is a problem, B is not a problem. Even with RS-4 I would start a weekend on fresh tires.

 

 

Agreed, good point and this needs to be "agreed" upon before moving forward.

This is a good point.  As a team that runs A052s, we do not change every pit stop.  We only change the fronts at 4 hours (in an 8 hour race).  The rears will last an entire race (and probably the next day as well, but we start with new rears the next day anyway).  If it were a 12+ hour race, we'd probably run something else and avoid the tire changes.  So should we be "penalized" because someone else changes every single time?  Do they have to change every time?.    I understand the cost implications, I cannot say I agree completely with the speed implications (the expected "reduction" thereof).  Fast teams are still going to be fast and will figure out how to continue this trend (seems that most don't actually run a hot tire - so it's really only the cost reductions that are a legit argument).  At the end of the day we'll do whatever but I think a limit on the number of tires used per day/per weekend is the best balance.  I know it would definitely make us think about our approach...which is for me a big part of the fun in all this (teams taking different approaches as opposed to having those options taken away).

 

Something else I was thinking of....what if a team can get an RE71-RS or Rival 1.5 S to last 8 hours?  How is their spend different than a team that has to buy for 18" wheels (of which there are some)?   Not sure there would be much difference at all (so yeah...I think the cost argument goes out the window if anything lasts 8 hours...what are the Miata teams running?).   I only throw this out there because I believe a certain Altima could almost get the RE-71R to last an entire 8 hours (someone correct me on this) and having run Rivals...the Rival 1.5S is not an A052.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

 

Is it a problem that a team starts each race on a new set of tires?  No
Is it a problem that a team puts on a set of rain tires? No
Is it a problem that a team changes tires at every pit stop?  Yes
Is it a problem that a team's weekend tire budget exceeds other teams weekend total budget?  Yes
 

I agree with all this except for the last point.  Reason being - I have no idea what anyone's build budget is.  And I'm sure there are some "bigger" build and development/maintenance budgets.  And because we can't go into each other's garages/shops and say don't do that, don't do this, don't spend that....I do have a hard time being told what I can't spend just because you can quantify it (speeds) and attribute it to what you see (tires being the most obvious)....when there is so much more that went into a build that cannot be quantified (expensive or not).   Maybe my thinking is flawed but I do appreciate the conversations happening.

Edited by TKRiggs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TKRiggs said:

E71-RS or Rival 1.5 S to last 8 hours?

I actually agree that the number of tires does not need to be governed.

 

Cheese grater tracks excluded.

 

Eight hours is my definition of a fast wearing tire, A whole weekend on the rear of a front wheel drive car before the tire is depleted, Again that’s what I call sticky, soft, fast wear. A car that can rotate front to rear to make it wouldn’t have any penalty. 

 

Price? They all cost about the same but some last 2 to 3 times longer making the economy sensible rather than throwing them away after 14 (or less)hours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

I actually agree that the number of tires does not need to be governed.

 

Cheese grater tracks excluded.

 

Eight hours is my definition of a fast wearing tire, A whole weekend on the rear of a front wheel drive car before the tire is depleted, Again that’s what I call sticky, soft, fast wear. A car that can rotate front to rear to make it wouldn’t have any penalty. 

 

Price? They all cost about the same but some last 2 to 3 times longer making the economy sensible rather than throwing them away after 14 (or less)hours.

At least on my car which is FWD, I will go thru 4 front tires per weekend. Doesn’t matter the brand or compound. I know, I know “you didn’t pick my car”. But it’s just the nature of a heavy FWD car. I’m fine with whatever BOD decides to do.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, scottyk said:

At least on my car which is FWD, I will go thru 4 front tires per weekend. Doesn’t matter the brand or compound. I know, I know “you didn’t pick my car”. But it’s just the nature of a heavy FWD car. I’m fine with whatever BOD decides to do.  

Have you any stats with rock hard rs4?

 

For a general data point, we are somewhere around  (never on a dyno, guesstimated) 250rwhp , 28-30 hours to a set of rs4, 16hr on coopers for those wondering how they do on heavy, rwd overdriven metal.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the Son of Andre team with their Mustang was the one that brought the issue to the attention of other competitors when they went through 16? tires in one weekend.

 

Even if the pointy end teams aren't running the blacklist tires, it would be a good idea to get this sorted. Imagine the uproar if they switched!  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Have you any stats with rock hard rs4?

 

For a general data point, we are somewhere around  (never on a dyno, guesstimated) 250rwhp , 28-30 hours to a set of rs4, 16hr on coopers for those wondering how they do on heavy, rwd overdriven metal.

 

 

No stats on a rock hard RS4. We budget 8 tires per weekend amongst the team. I’d never put my car or our other drivers (friends) out in the car with rock hard tires. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Have you any stats with rock hard rs4?

 

For a general data point, we are somewhere around  (never on a dyno, guesstimated) 250rwhp , 28-30 hours to a set of rs4, 16hr on coopers for those wondering how they do on heavy, rwd overdriven metal.

 

 

So you want everyone to be on tires that last 30hrs each just to mitigate/even out/equalize budgets?  Is that what you are saying?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...