Jump to content

Road America - Protest on #32 Premium Dudes - Denied


LuckyKid
 Share

Recommended Posts

At the end of the race at Road America on Saturday, I filed a protest on #32 Premium Dudes.  

 

During Impound I approached their team captain, Nate, and asked him which engines were used for their swap.  Nate mentioned that a JDM Odyssey(later corrected to Accord) engine (K24A) was being used, and it is being claimed as a USDM CRV engine (K24Z6/7) under the foreign swap rule.  Nate and I had discussed this previously on the forum and I did not believe their setup was legal and I had planned to protest them at the next race which we co-attended.

 

I identified two items of protest:

 

First Item

I do not believe it is legal to use two different models of vehicle within the foreign swap rules of an engine swap. IE:  If claiming a UDSM miata motor, you need to use the JDM miata rating.  In this case, Premium Dudes is using a JDM engine from a Honda Accord and claiming the US horsepower for a Honda CRV.

 

On the first claim, the rule 4.5.6.2 does not explicitly state that the models of the USDM and foreign markets need to be the same.  I have only read the rule with the assumption that they must be the same models IE, if claiming a USDM CRV engine, you’d have the use a foreign CRV engine, not mix and match.  

 

This first claim was denied and it was ruled that the foreign swap rules do not prohibit the mixing and matching of vehicle models.

 

Second Item

The second element protested was that these engines were not the same construction.  Whereas the JDM accord engine is a K24A (First Generation K24) and the CRV engine who’s horsepower is claimed is a K24Z6/7 (Second Generation K24).

 

The engine in the Premium Dudes BMW is a K24A, claimed to be from a JDM or EUDM Accord, which features Honda's i-VTEC on both camshafts as the high output version.  This engine also features a standard 4 x port output for the exhaust. The A series was Honda's first generation of the K24 engines.

 

The K24Z6/7 which was used as the USDM Horsepower reference is the second generation of the K24 engine.  These engines feature a completely different head where the exhaust manifold is now integrated into the head among other changes to oiling, the block, etc.  This engine also only offers i-VTEC on the intake camshaft rather than both cams on the engine they are actually using in the car.  

 

My positions is that these engines are not similar in construction, and not even from the same generation of engines thus not within rule 4.5.6.2.1


This claim was denied.  I was told that “similar construction” is defined as material, so long as both heads and blocks are the same material (IE: aluminum or steel) these engines are deemed to be similar in construction despite their differences.  Both engines are also the same displacement, thus legal.  -$50 for me.

 

Additional Factors

It was implied that this swap was reviewed and approved by the TAC/Tech, which I later confirmed from Andrew Johnson, who built this car and served on TAC when this was approved.  I asked Andrew about this conflict and he mentioned he gave the information to the other members of TAC who then approved this swap.


Implications

My view is that this denied protest sets a horrible precedence.  I would agree that the rule itself is poorly written since it is left up to interpretation what construction means.  There is also no wording to state that foreign market engines need to come from like for like chassis, IE: USDM CRV and JDM CRV not JDM Accord.   

 

What concerns me is that there is now a precedent to use foreign swaps to pick and choose horsepower ratings, with no limits between models or even generations of engines.  What more, the reasoning given to me would not even require engines to be in the same family, or come from the same manufacturer, only that they must share the same material type, displacement, and be within 3% of the ratings, which can vary wildly with no limits on country.    

 

For example higher hp direct injection ECOTEC engines depowered for Chinese markets could now be swapped against older generation engines currently being used as a common miata swap.  

 

Postscript
The entire CCES handled the protest professionally and although I disagree with the decision on its face and believe it's the wrong ruling for CCES, I respect their roles and understand they have to work with what they are given by the BoD and the rulebook.  They did a great job navigating this issue and took the time to try to get the decision makers involved.

 

Nate, Andrew and the Premium Dudes team were professional and courteous about this protest.  Sunday morning I got a little heated and expressed my frustration about the situation after the drivers meeting with Andrew's father then Andrew. I wish I kept a cooler head regarding the situation.  My apologies for that I should have remembered, don’t hate the player, hate the game, and I accept that I got outplayed.

 

 I rented a seat with a team this weekend and they took no part in this protest. This protest was lodged by me as captain of the #630 PartsBadger team.

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 5
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I disagree with this loophole in principle, I don't find Nates car to be enough of an overdog to warrant a full witch hunt.  IMO, a properly teased M50 makes more power for the samish value IIRC.

 

I do think that allowing JDM engines to be substituted during swaps, when the swap rule says the engine must come from a vehicle on the VPI table is an addition to that rule that does need a rethink.

 

I think we have bigger fish to fry than The Premium Dudes car specifically.  And I say that after getting run off the track by 2 different EC E30s this weekend.  In fact I watched the TrackCarRental E30 nearly run Nates car off track in the bus stop before they slammed the door on me coming onto the front straight.  Whoever was driving had the spatial awareness of a toddler with a bucket on their head.

Edited by Ian
No can haz spell
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Ian said:

a properly teased M50 makes more power for the samish value 

The E30 with a M54B25 is a bigger improvement than the K24. All aluminum 6 cylinder and by improving intake and exhaust and tuning the existing ECU it’s running away from the M50 and the K24.  Unfortunately it cost double the money to complete but draws little to no attention. 

Edited by TimS
Clarification
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

Second Item

The second element protested was that these engines were not the same construction.

This (as I see it) is the crux of the issue. "Construction" is vague at best. The concept and loose definition of "significantly similar" leaves room for many equally valid interpretations. The wording should be changed so that everyone comes to the same conclusion about what is and is not legal (this should be a goal of any rulebook).

 

4.5.6.2.1. Foreign market swap engine must be significantly similar to a US/Canadian engine from a vehicle on the VPI list (Same displacement and construction) and be within 3% of the US/Canadian advertised horsepower.

 

Just so that everyone is on the same page, the car was raced at 500 points (50 pt swap). By the LuckyKid / PartsBadger reading of the rule it would have to be claimed differently and would be a 53 pt swap for 503 total points.

Edited by enginerd
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is from KPower the company I believe Premium Dudes bought at least some of their swap components from:

 

How much power will I make with my K24 swap?

This depends on a variety of factors, as well as dyno tuning. Generally speaking, we see 220-230whp from stock K24A2 engines with our bolt ons, and 200-210whp from stock K24Z3 engines. 

Stock K24A engines are often upgraded with cams, head porting, and high compression pistons to make 300whp N/A. Forced induction can generally make 500whp safely on a stock K24 engine.

 

 

I don't believe they are putting down 220-300 RWHP.  They are also running the OE intake manifold.  However I believe they are running substantially more than the normal swapped E30s, having raced against both many times.

Miata's running the K24A or K24A2 with the Hondata ECU are putting down around 220 rwhp.  The KPower E30 is at 230 at the wheels with the IM, TB and Header:  https://kpower.industries/blogs/news/the-k24-bmw-e30-swap-package-is-here
for reference.

Edited by LuckyKid
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, TimS said:

The E30 with a M54B25 is a bigger improvement than the K24. All aluminum 6 cylinder and by improving intake and exhaust and tuning the existing ECU it’s running away from the M50 and the K24

 

I'm not super familiar with the BMW alphabet soup.  They're all M5X's to me, and they're all pretty underrated from the factory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, LuckyKid said:


Implications

My view is that this denied protest sets a horrible precedence.  I would agree that the rule itself is poorly written since it is left up to interpretation what construction means.  There is also no wording to state that foreign market engines need to come from like for like chassis, IE: USDM CRV and JDM CRV not JDM Accord.   

 

What concerns me is that there is now a precedent to use foreign swaps to pick and choose horsepower ratings, with no limits between models or even generations of engines.  What more, the reasoning given to me would not even require engines to be in the same family, or come from the same manufacturer, only that they must share the same material type, displacement, and be within 3% of the ratings, which can vary wildly with no limits on country.    

To me this is the issue- you should have to claim what the swap truly is- not pick something it’s not.  It looks like the claimed swap did NOT have variable cam timing on both intake and exhaust while the engine in the car does.  (CRV vs Accord). 
 

Picking and choosing power ratings and deviation from the actual part claimed is a terrible idea.  
 

For those that say it’s close enough then where does it stop?  How much of a difference is too much?   I didn’t like the JDM part (3%) being ok either.  

The swap calculator has definite inflection points where 1 or 2 HP turns into a ton of points.  It’s there for a reason and makes sense.  This type of ruling circumvents that.  

Edited by etoy
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Ian said:

While I disagree with this loophole in principle, I don't find Nates car to be enough of an overdog to warrant a full witch hunt.  IMO, a properly teased M50 makes more power for the samish value IIRC.

 

I do think that allowing JDM engines to be substituted during swaps, when the swap rule says the engine must come from a vehicle on the VPI table is an addition to that rule that does need a rethink.

 

I think we have bigger fish to fry than The Premium Dudes car specifically.  And I say that after getting run off the track by 2 different EC E30s this weekend.  In fact I watched the TrackCarRental E30 nearly run Nates car off track in the bus stop before they slammed the door on me coming onto the front straight.  Whoever was driving had the spatial awareness of a toddler with a bucket on their head.

I think you are pretty close here.   I think Nate's car is one issue, and is probably faster than M50x swaps when really pushed hard.  (its surely faster than it was)  They just read the book and squeaked though a little hole in the words.  If not plugged it might be a breach in the dike.

 

Probably the bigger issue, is the precedent for a nearly impossible to track mix and match foreign and domestic market salad of components.   I would say this falls into the unintended consequences of allowing this swap and combination of bits for 50 points.   

 

Stand back, the speed leap train is coming................

 

Oh, the ECO Tech cams from a Solstice are steel, so same construction right???????? 

 

Edited by JDChristianson
  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

I'm not super familiar with the BMW alphabet soup.  They're all M5X's to me, and they're all pretty underrated from the factory.

The same displacement for all 2.5L. M50 iron block aluminum head, M54 aluminum block and head. Stock M54 SUV power rating 180’s HP. Swap exhaust manifolds(OEM) upgrade intake and tune the ECU and you are gold. Lots of different HP claims out there but substantially more than the M20. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although it seems the wording of the rules allows it.. I believe that claiming your swap is a K24Z6 but then actually running a K24A should not be allowed.

 

The rule should be updated.

 

The intent seemed to be that if it was easier/cheaper to get a K24Z6 from overseas rather than source one domestically, you could do that. As long as both versions of the K24Z6 were rated within 3% of each other.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

The intent seemed to be that if it was easier/cheaper to get a K24Z6 from overseas rather than source one domestically, you could do that. As long as both versions of the K24Z6 were rated within 3% of each other.

I had first thought of this swap as well as a couple others a few years ago when my original BMW M20 was DOA. I was interested in a swap to save money and for future ease of replacement engines. I was not clear what I could do. After a couple Tech inquiries I decided to rebuild the original for a king’s ransom and it is about ready for a refresh. I didn’t want to have a problem with the swap getting me sent to EC. I would still like to make this swap. After the initial swap the replacement engines are nearly free compared to the BMW rebuild or replacement options. I thank Nate for sorting out the swap for the rest of us. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone looked into the legality of the oil pan on Premium Dude's car? I was under the (possibly incorrect) impression that swaps do not include any custom or aftermarket oil pans required to make it work, but there is very clearly a custom fabricated aluminum oil pan jutting out from the front of the engine.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

They just read the book and squeaked though a little hole in the words...

 

From what I understand, a member of the TAC was behind this swap, and that's my biggest concern here.  The TAC should be plugging holes in the rules, rather than exploiting them.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, gavro said:

Has anyone looked into the legality of the oil pan on Premium Dude's car? I was under the (possibly incorrect) impression that swaps do not include any custom or aftermarket oil pans required to make it work, but there is very clearly a custom fabricated aluminum oil pan jutting out from the front of the engine.

 

See below from the tech desk.  

 

The way that I would interpret that was that if you needed to cut a corner off the stock pan and weld in some new material, it might be considered free.  If its actually a whole new oil pan, then either material points or 25 if its a bought piece.

 

 

2020-02-27 - Engine Swap Oil Pan

Q.
In regards to Rule 4.5.3:
"Engine swaps include stock long block, stock exhaust manifolds, stock induction system, motor mounts, starter, ECU, wiring, and transmission adapters"
This rule makes no mention of the oil pan.

Question 1: How many points is it to run an aftermarket oil pan that aids in the packaging of the swapped engine?
Question 2: How many points is it to fabricate an oil pan that aids in the packaging of the swapped engine? I assume it would be material points only.

A.
An aftermarket oil pan is 25 points
Fabricated is materials cost.
If you can prove that the oil pan modification is necessary for the swap it may be included on the swap sheet under cost.
Submit your complete swap details for review by Tech.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

 

If you can prove that the oil pan modification is necessary for the swap it may be included on the swap sheet under cost.
Submit your complete swap details for review by Tech.

 

Thanks for that. Presumably the above is the basis for legality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

 

Was it an OE aluminum pan modified to fit the chassis? Or was it a clearly complete custom oil pan?

 

Can't speak for Nate, but they cut up the intake manifold and welded it back together to make it fit, I'd imagine they did the same with the pan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

 

Was it an OE aluminum pan modified to fit the chassis? Or was it a clearly complete custom oil pan?

 

It is clearly either custom or fabricated. Very shiny welded up aluminum plate. Looks a lot like the one in the photos here: https://kpower.industries/blogs/news/the-k24-bmw-e30-swap-package-is-here

 

Edit: Not sure that's the one they're using but it's $1100 from kpower. https://kpower.industries/collections/kpowere30-swap-components/products/k24-swap-oiling-system-for-bmw-e30

 

FWIW - I'm not trying to go after the swap. I'm not a fan of all the board/TAC conspiracy theories that get thrown around, but I would (selfishly) like to understand how this was constructed and submitted to be deemed legal so I can do something similar.

 

 

 

Edited by gavro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

From what I understand, a member of the TAC was behind this swap, and that's my biggest concern here.  The TAC should be plugging holes in the rules, rather than exploiting them.

We really need to cut the crap on these types of posts.

 

The TAC is full of how many people? I find it very unlikely that a TAC member would be able to convince the rest of the organization to allow something to their advantage.

 

If this is such a concern from the 4 people on the forum, then lobby for changes in the organization's structure. There will always be multiple racers in positions of "power". And it seems the easy button is to accuse them of wrongdoing when they beat you.

 

This post NEEDS to be deleted.

Edited by mindspin311
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, mindspin311 said:

We really need to cut the crap on these types of posts.

 

The TAC is full of how many people? I find it very unlikely that a TAC member would be able to convince the rest of the organization to allow something to their advantage.

 

This post NEEDS to be delete.

If only we had a way to document all of the decisions that are made on this stuff......

  • Like 5
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, mindspin311 said:

We really need to cut the crap on these types of posts.

 

The TAC is full of how many people? I find it very unlikely that a TAC member would be able to convince the rest of the organization to allow something to their advantage.

 

This post NEEDS to be delete.

umm NO.

 

It's an optics problem.  FIX it don't delete it.  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

If this is such a concern from the 4 people on the forum, then lobby for changes in the organization's structure. There will always be multiple racers in positions of "power". And it seems the easy button is to accuse them of wrongdoing when they beat you.

 

 

 

I wrote maybe the least likable petition ever ACE.  I still think all TAC and board members should run in EC

Edited by Ben 595
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, big miss by CC on this one. If we're gonna play the Honda alphabet game, then by Tech's logic a B18b and a B18c are the same. Made out of the same metal and same displacement. (If you don't speak Honda, that's VTEC vs non-VTEC Integra engines with a 30 hp difference).

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...