2023 BCCR changes

[petawawarace]

Perhaps I just need some clarity here.  
I see Bill updated the 2023 BCCR and added a graphic to Appendix 2. There appears to be blue shaded areas on the car, but I can’t find anything that explains this.  I don’t understand what the blue areas mean.  Am I missing something? 
 

It also says “The body panel must be in place between the rear quarter panels”

What does this mean?   

 

Can we still make convertibles out of non-convertible model cars? 

Edited December 15, 2022 by petawawarace

[Team Infiniti]

9 hours ago, petawawarace said:

Can we still make convertibles out of non-convertible model cars? 

I see nothing about making convertibles aside from the 50-50 and  75% instead of 60% body rule.

[enginerd]

9 hours ago, petawawarace said:

 

It also says “The body panel must be in place between the rear quarter panels”

What does this mean?   

I read that as referring to the trunk or hatchback area. Basically, the trunk needs to exist, can’t be open.

Looking from the side at 50mph you would never know if the trunk lid was removed or not, this makes it a requirement that it is retained.

 

Feedback welcome if I didn’t read this correctly. 

[LuckyKid]

I like that the trunk floor rules.

1. Trunk floor = good
2. No Trunk floor = illegal
3. No Trunk floor, but put 22 gallons of flammable liquid in the spot = good again

This rule seems substantially more restrictive than the first restrictive implementation.  

[Team Infiniti]

4 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Feedback welcome

Pretty sure you’re reading it correctly, what’s going to happen next:

The insistence on detail, coverage, mounting methods, material, how much or how little of said panel is permissible(once definition is finally hashed out)

[Chris Huggins]

27 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I read that as referring to the trunk or hatchback area. Basically, the trunk needs to exist, can’t be open.

Looking from the side at 50mph you would never know if the trunk lid was removed or not, this makes it a requirement that it is retained.

 

Feedback welcome if I didn’t read this correctly. 

The first line says "trunk lid can be removed"

 

What this says is "thing the trunk lid latches to cant be removed"

 

Feedback is being received - improvements can be made.  Note that "blue shaded areas are able to be modified/removed" seems obvious in hindsight.

[enginerd]

26 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

The first line says "trunk lid can be removed"

 

What this says is "thing the trunk lid latches to cant be removed"

 

Feedback is being received - improvements can be made.  Note that "blue shaded areas are able to be modified/removed" seems obvious in hindsight.

If you want to keep the cars looking like cars, requiring trunk lids is a good idea. 

 

So just to clarify, this body part you are talking about is the vertical piece that normally holds the license plate and taillights? And that needs to remain in place.

Edited December 15, 2022 by enginerd

[Bill Strong]

11 hours ago, petawawarace said:

Perhaps I just need some clarity here.  
I see Bill updated the 2023 BCCR and added a graphic to Appendix 2. T

Just a clarification.
The BOD has ownership of the BCCR.
I have nothing to do with it anymore except artwork when needed and uploading documents to our server. 
I say this because they worked hard at getting the BCCR completed. They deserve the credit.
There are issues with the current document when using Adobe Liquid Mode in Adobe PDF viewer on mobile devices.
So, view it in web mode, and it looks fine. They convert from Word to PDF, which does not always work as well as building them in Adobe products when using the mobile Adobe Liquid viewer.
 

[Chris Huggins]

38 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Just a clarification.
The BOD has ownership of the BCCR.
I have nothing to do with it anymore except artwork when needed and uploading documents to our server. 
I say this because they worked hard at getting the BCCR completed. They deserve the credit.
There are issues with the current document when using Adobe Liquid Mode in Adobe PDF viewer on mobile devices.
So, view it in web mode, and it looks fine. They convert from Word to PDF, which does not always work as well as building them in Adobe products when using the mobile Adobe Liquid viewer.
 

ChampCar recommends you use a standard PDF viewing platform to review the BCCR. 

 

The formatting/Appearance has been checked on Mobile IOS/Android in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox and appears as intended.  Downloading the PDF to my Iphone it also appears as intended in the Books app. 

 

It also works without error on Desktop for Windows 10 and MacOS in Chrome, Safari, Edge, and PDF viewers such as Acrobat Reader, Bluebeam, and SumatraPDF.

 

 

[Wheelman_99 - C Rallo]

I spy a Neon!

[MMiskoe]

Looks like Mark Gregory lost his cover page status.  But he’s still on the web page.

 

Tow hooks – good housekeeping thing to see changed, I have bumper covers with holes in them from tow hooks, don’t need to repeat that.

 

No more factory forced induction slipping under the radar.  Hmm, so much for my Mazdaspeed version of the miata……  (it always surprised me that no one capitalized on this)

 

Tire change rules – that is a well written plan.  Clear & concise, but doesn’t have big holes to cheat through.

 

If we have a big number panel on the hood, do we still need the small one?

 

Bodywork rules are going to create some effort for a few teams. 

 

 

 

Now commence bickering.

 

[petawawarace]

6 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

Note that "blue shaded areas are able to be modified/removed" seems obvious in hindsight.

But it doesn’t say that anywhere I can see? Am I missing something? Or was that missed? Sorry just confused.  
 

 

So if those areas can be modified, it would imply the other areas cannot?  So no chopping roofs off?  No big vents in the hoods?  

[Throoster]

1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

But it doesn’t say that anywhere I can see? Am I missing something? Or was that missed? Sorry just confused.  
 

 

So if those areas can be modified, it would imply the other areas cannot?  So no chopping roofs off?  No big vents in the hoods?  

I do not think that the rules ever specifically allowed the chopping of roofs off, just fell under a combination of various other rules: ie, 60% rule, fire wall rule, rule about removing windshields, etc.... May be much harder under a 75% rule if your car never came as a convertible.  If you a running a Ford Crown Vic LTD good luck taking the roof off.  If you had a convertible option you are good to go, just claim it as a convertible.

 

The Appendix 2 Chassis Modification Guide specifically says a hood can be removed (even though it is not shaded), so I am guessing that is can also be modified with a big vent, especially since hood vents are free under 4.7.2.

 

My take is that shaded areas are basically free, and the rest has to remain generally the same, to paraphrase the Appendix, but with modifications specifically allowed elsewhere in the BCCR.

 

Do not get too hung up on the pictures, read what the rules say, what the Appendix says and understand that the Appendix should be " ....supplementary material that is not an essential part of the text itself but which may be helpful in providing a more comprehensive understanding of the research problem or it is information that is too cumbersome to be included in the body of the paper." (https://libguides.usc.edu/writingguide/appendices)

Edited December 15, 2022 by Throoster
spelling/grammer

[petawawarace]

1 hour ago, Throoster said:

I do not think that the rules ever specifically allowed the chopping of roofs off, just fell under a combination of various other rules: ie, 60% rule, fire wall rule, rule about removing windshields, etc.... May be much harder under a 75% rule if your car never came as a convertible.  If you a running a Ford Crown Vic LTD good luck taking the roof off.  If you had a convertible option you are good to go, just claim it as a convertible.

 

The Appendix 2 Chassis Modification Guide specifically says a hood can be removed (even though it is not shaded), so I am guessing that is can also be modified with a big vent, especially since hood vents are free under 4.7.2.

 

My take is that shaded areas are basically free, and the rest has to remain generally the same, to paraphrase the Appendix, but with modifications specifically allowed elsewhere in the BCCR.

 

Do not get too hung up on the pictures, read what the rules say, what the Appendix says and understand that the Appendix should be " ....supplementary material that is not an essential part of the text itself but which may be helpful in providing a more comprehensive understanding of the research problem or it is information that is too cumbersome to be included in the body of the paper." (https://libguides.usc.edu/writingguide/appendices)

Yeah I’m just trying to clarify for my own understanding as things have not always been clear with Champcar.  
 

I not of the opinion that roofs should be allowed to be cut off. I think the cars should stay as they are. Guy the inside all you want but I don’t think we should be encouraging the chopped up messes that are currently out there.  But I understand the problem with current cars already like that.  
This just seems like a big change. I hope Champcar has the balls to see it through and I wish they would just come out and say that they don’t want chopped roofs etc.   

Regardless this seems like a step in the right direction.  

[enginerd]

18 hours ago, petawawarace said:

But it doesn’t say that anywhere I can see? Am I missing something? Or was that missed? Sorry just confused.  

He was saying '[adding] a note seems obvious in hindsight'. So he was agreeing with the feedback and will add such a note.

Edited December 16, 2022 by enginerd

[Ron_e]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:29 PM, petawawarace said:

Perhaps I just need some clarity here.  
I see Bill updated the 2023 BCCR and added a graphic to Appendix 2. There appears to be blue shaded areas on the car, but I can’t find anything that explains this.  I don’t understand what the blue areas mean.  Am I missing something? 
 

It also says “The body panel must be in place between the rear quarter panels”

What does this mean?   

 

Can we still make convertibles out of non-convertible model cars? 

 

I don't think I have ever seen anything more confusing.

 

"Front fenders may be modified.  Overall length cannot be modified above the wheel."  The length of what?  If you can't modify above the wheel does that mean fender flares are not permitted?  That would be awesome!

The trunk floor must be in place but the spare tire well may be removed.  Isn't the spare tire well about 90% of the trunk floor and is that regardless of a cell?

The trunk lid can be removed... but the rear body panel must be in place between the rear quarter panels.  Isn't the the trunk lid the rear body panel or do they mean the rear bumper cover?  Maybe it means the rear parcel shelf?

"The rear quarter panels from the rear window location down must maintain the general profile of the standard stock side view of the car.  Overall length cannot be altered above the wheel."  The length of what?  Do they mean the rear side windows or the rear back window?  If they mean rear side windows and if your car doesn't have rear side windows then are those cars free to modify?  If they mean rear back window then what is the relation of the rear back window to the rear quarters with respect to the side view and is it just the vertical plane of the rear back window that needs to have the general profile?

[Scott]

Honestly, 

 

I couldn't make heads or tails of it either.  Can someone please clarify what any of this means, or show pictorial examples?  I have no idea what you guys are after here.

[Throoster]

10 hours ago, Ron_e said:

...."Front fenders may be modified.  Overall length cannot be modified above the wheel."  The length of what?  If you can't modify above the wheel does that mean fender flares are not permitted?  That would be awesome!

The trunk floor must be in place but the spare tire well may be removed.  Isn't the spare tire well about 90% of the trunk floor and is that regardless of a cell?

The trunk lid can be removed... but the rear body panel must be in place between the rear quarter panels.  Isn't the the trunk lid the rear body panel or do they mean the rear bumper cover?  Maybe it means the rear parcel shelf?

"The rear quarter panels from the rear window location down must maintain the general profile of the standard stock side view of the car.  Overall length cannot be altered above the wheel."  The length of what?  Do they mean the rear side windows or the rear back window?  If they mean rear side windows and if your car doesn't have rear side windows then are those cars free to modify?  If they mean rear back window then what is the relation of the rear back window to the rear quarters with respect to the side view and is it just the vertical plane of the rear back window that needs to have the general profile?..."

As to the the front fender and rear quarter panel length, I will venture to guess there is at least one car that has the front fenders, the rear quarters or maybe even both stretched. ChampCar does not have any rules about diminsions, so I am guessing that there maybe some monkey play going on here. So, if you spend some material points, or repurpose some material, and can quietly gain an inch or two (or maybe more?) the fulcrum of your aerodynamics moves. Also, everything else can move further out. Putting you rear wing out as far as the rules allow may actually hurt front downforce, even if you are maxing out the rules in the front. BUT if you can offset that by moving everything in front out an inch or two.....I read this as  eliminating the ability to stretch the car to move your spoiler/wing etc...

 

Or maybe you need to raise the hieght of your hood or rear deck, same concept but that would probably be defined as height not length. Fender flares are good, as I would interpret them as increasing width, not length.

 

The rear body panel between the rear quarter panels in just that. Open your trunk, look down and what do you see? If it is body structure not specifically allowed to be modified elsewhere in the BCCR it has to stay.

 

Trunk floor is the same thing. There has to be a floor in the trunk area. The way I read that is your can leave it as is, you can cut it out and put in an appropriately sized  fuel cell or you can remove the spare tire well and fill that hole with what ever means you want, paying points if needed.

 

There were a few cars out this year with nothing in the rear other than some frame rails and cut down quarter panels flapping in the wind. I beleive the idea is for the general silhouette of the vehicle to remain the same, but still accounting for specifically allowed modifications called out in the BCCR.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Throoster

[JDChristianson]

8.3. PIT STOPS AND TIRE CHANGES 8.3.1. NO TOOLS, EQUIPMENT, OR CREW MEMBERS ARE ALLOWED ON OR OVER THE WALL UNTIL THE CAR HAS COME TO A FULL AND COMPLETE STOP. 2023-V2_R https://champcar.org

33 8.3.2. The tire change process is in effect any time a team replaces a tire in the “Hot Pit” during a Champcar sanctioned event.

8.3.3. During a tire change process, only battery and/or hand tools are permitted over the pit wall. No Pneumatic tools are permitted.

8.3.4. During a tire change process, only 1 Lug tool (Battery or Hand), 1 Jack, 1 Torque Wrench, and Jack Stand(s) are allowed over the wall.

8.3.5. Tire change process tool restrictions are only applicable to tire changes. These restrictions do not apply for any repairs, adjustments, or changes required to any other vehicle components, which may occur concurrently to tire replacement activities.

 

 

If someone is changing a rear tire,  can someone else pull the front tire off with different tools so that they can tighten a caliper or sway bar bolt?   If the team wants to also change that front tire, do they have to put it back on and then take it off the with the tire changing tool? 

[Team Infiniti]

If you’re willing to bastardize your torque wrench into a breaker bar…

[JDChristianson]

5 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

If you’re willing to bastardize your torque wrench into a breaker bar…

but doesn't this say you can use other tools to do other stuff?

 

Tire change process tool restrictions are only applicable to tire changes. These restrictions do not apply for any repairs, adjustments, or changes required to any other vehicle components, which may occur concurrently to tire replacement activities.

 

And why not initially take over an old torque wrench that you got for a buck at a garage sale and use to start the second wheel.   Then when its time to trq the first one grab your good one off the wall  or from the crew chief holding it out for you

 

[Team Infiniti]

4 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

but doesn't this say you can use other tools to do other stuff?

 

Tire change process tool restrictions are only applicable to tire changes. These restrictions do not apply for any repairs, adjustments, or changes required to any other vehicle components, which may occur concurrently to tire replacement activities.

 

And why not initially take over an old torque wrench that you got for a buck at a garage sale and use to start the second wheel.   Then when its time to trq the first one grab your good one off the wall  or from the crew chief holding it out for you

 

Look at it from a perspective where the goal is to slow down tire changes, how much work is going to get done with a lone breaker bar/torque wrench?
 Zip five lug nuts off with the gun drop the car on a jack stand run over zip five more Lugnuts off (switch some wheels around rotate the tires put one new tire on whatever) one guy screws some Lugnuts on by hand and breaker bar. the other guy runs back-and-forth with the torque wrench, it’s not efficient.

 

It’s just like the body panel question, if you have a saw in your hand you should have the phone in the other talking with a very accessible head of tech, Ray.

Not worth all of the mental exercise/conversation if you ask me

[JDChristianson]

13 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Look at it from a perspective where the goal is to slow down tire changes, how much work is going to get done with a lone breaker bar/torque wrench?
 Zip five lug nuts off with the gun drop the car on a jack stand run over zip five more Lugnuts off (switch some wheels around rotate the tires put one new tire on whatever) one guy screws some Lugnuts on by hand and breaker bar. the other guy runs back-and-forth with the torque wrench, it’s not efficient.

 

It’s just like the body panel question, if you have a saw in your hand you should have the phone in the other talking with a very accessible head of tech, Ray.

Not worth all of the mental exercise/conversation if you ask me

This is interesting.   One jack lifts the whole side up.   One guy zips the back wheel off with a battery impact.   guy 2 zips off the front to check the brakes (with a different Impact)  now both wheels are off can a different one be put on the front?

[Team Infiniti]

Over thinking…One impact if it gets tire, how hard is it to hand the impact to front guy 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Team Infiniti

[JDChristianson]

1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Over thinking…One impact if it gets tire, how hard is it to hand the impact to front guy 

So seems like either way we are not slowing up or limiting tire changes much. It’s an ok rule, does it accomplish what it was meant too?  It doesn’t affect our team.