55mini Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 After a long ride back north and a lot of thinking and reading of the rules as written, which I have read multiple times now, I have a problem understanding the location in the BCCR that states anything in regards to the crankshaft, rods or pistons in an engine rebuild. Maybe I missed it somewhere but I don't think I have. In years past rebuilds had been outlined with options and such like bores can be cleaned up (bored) to oversize limited to OEM sizes available. Same with crank bearings. I know it is the goal of some for a shortened rule book but in the case of JSK impound regarding bore and stroke not sure that is defined. Can someone shed some light on the subject. I don't agree that allowing a stroked motor is fair but the rules don't seem to reflect that at all. For those that don't know me I am not affilliated in any way with JSK and was at the race helping crew for TRMotorsports as a fueler. I am a team captain of another team. I do applaude Champcar for there efforts in impound but am questioning the rules only, as other things have been removed and no one seems to know how. A recent example would involve rear window vents, it used to say no more then two 3" but now says nothing so it is open. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obscene Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 I missed the details. Were they DQ'd for having aftermarket crank/rod/pistons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 33 minutes ago, obscene said: I missed the details. Were they DQ'd for having aftermarket crank/rod/pistons? I believe it was to be found with a stroke issue but waiting for full report. My point is more to what happened to the BCCR rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grufton Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 (edited) I don't recall there ever being an allowance in the BCCR for bore or stroke different from stock (though previous leadership said they'd never check it). A decent argument could be made to allow mild bore work to keep older engines viable (though at the extreme that just means everyone has to bore theirs to the max anyway). I see no good reason to allow changes to stroke however. Kudos to Champcar for the inspection. Edit: I suppose non-stock bore or stroke would be legit if it were claimed on the tech form and assigned a point value. Edited February 6 by Grufton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted February 6 Administrators Report Share Posted February 6 Tech always allows normal OE standard rebores to fix out of spec bores or bore damage. Example not in relation to the DQ this weekend: You can't claim a 3-liter but have it bored and stroked to a 4-liter. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted February 6 Administrators Report Share Posted February 6 And for those that want to check their own bore, here is the tool we are using - https://www.hyperracing.com/Bore-Gauge-100mm-Max-for-1000cc-Lightning-Sprint?fbclid=IwAR2yVAZYs29i1RhBRmnL-Wn0vBhm5_mfTaMEJh3vqDI578RWf4ivgPKTAq4 If you want your bore tested at an event, find me on Friday. You need to have the cylinder we test at bottom-dead-center, plus the plug removed. I can only test center plug-style heads. We also have a HD inspection camera, we can look at the piston tops, cylinder walls, and valves from the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 I would assume, and you know what that means, if the size of your bore & stock stays within the class you are running you should be OK. I Assume..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 Just now, Bill Strong said: Tech always allows normal OE standard rebores to fix out of spec bores or bore damage. Example not in relation to the DQ this weekend: You can't claim a 3-liter but have it bored and stroked to a 4-liter. Bill I am not saying stroke is legal at all, what I am saying is the rule book was changed and details of rebuilding the motor taken out. As a builder of 20-30 year old motors running stock bores and such is not an option, period. The only route a builder has is to use overbore pistons and the rules used to define that process. It has been removed, all of it. So playing the devil's advocate tell me how a team can be penalized for a motor being bored? Someone needs to put the rule back in place and also add offset crank grinds are not allowed. All done and all understood. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 Bernie thanks for adding! Bill if you are looking to go down the route of bore testing and stroke please get the stroke measuring tool. Using a blind material or wood dowel with a sharpie leaves a large margin of error with the sharpie off by at least 1/8" or more. That tool is available as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted February 6 Administrators Report Share Posted February 6 10 minutes ago, 55mini said: Bernie thanks for adding! Bill if you are looking to go down the route of bore testing and stroke please get the stroke measuring tool. Using a blind material or wood dowel with a sharpie leaves a large margin of error with the sharpie off by at least 1/8" or more. That tool is available as well. I know. That would not have worked in the Porsche as the tool is not long enough. They are custom-made by the owner of that company. I am going to talk to him about making different adapters. Those are made specifically for Karting engines. So I don't know how they would work in bigger engines with different style heads and plug sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Bill Strong said: I know. That would not have worked in the Porsche as the tool is not long enough. They are custom-made by the owner of that company. I am going to talk to him about making different adapters. Those are made specifically for Karting engines. So I don't know how they would work in bigger engines with different style heads and plug sizes. Any digital caliper with a long enough stroke can do the trick FYI. Now as I understand the process in impound testing was not done to all cars and was not done under protest. To be fair to all maybe all podium cars should be tested as was done with your look down all cylinders at Road America. Yes I know that adds time to impound but it might be the correct process for all. Porsches included since there are now many in the series. Also they make the dual size plug adaptor. Edited February 6 by 55mini addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 (edited) Post deleted, it was too far off topic. Edited February 6 by MMiskoe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 16 minutes ago, MMiskoe said: Post deleted, it was too far off topic. Its all Bills fault!!!!! As normal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 No, I forgot about how some of the rules are written which negated the measurement method I was suggesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 59 minutes ago, hotrod said: I would assume, and you know what that means, if the size of your bore & stock stays within the class you are running you should be OK. I Assume..... I sure hope not. A small overbore is reasonable. Changing stroke is not. There is no reason for stroke change other than cheating (or not verifying that you have what you are claiming to have) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 41 minutes ago, petawawarace said: I sure hope not. A small overbore is reasonable. Changing stroke is not. There is no reason for stroke change other than cheating (or not verifying that you have what you are claiming to have) The perception of the rule needs to be clear. Slight over bore is OK? Slight stroke is OK? No stroking crankshaft? Can't be over in cubic inch for class being run? If you are not over in CI for the class you are in what is illegal about bore & stroke? Class C is 2.41 liters to 3.91. Where does it say I can't modify my engine to 3.91? Points are not claimed for bore & stroke............... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 (edited) 6 minutes ago, hotrod said: The perception of the rule needs to be clear. Slight over bore is OK? Slight stroke is OK? No stroking crankshaft? Can't be over in cubic inch for class being run? If you are not over in CI for the class you are in what is illegal about bore & stroke? Class C is 2.41 liters to 3.91. Where does it say I can't modify my engine to 3.91? Points are not claimed for bore & stroke............... If its different from your VPI, then it would be an advantage. Say your car is 2.42L and mine is 3.90. Our cars have been assessed a VPI based on their performance potential. But your allowed to add an extra 1.5L? I don't think so. Here are the rules that say you can't: 4.4.1. ALL non-stock components, parts, assemblies, or systems MUST be declared to Tech Inspection and declared and accounted for in the total points of the vehicle. 4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value. Parts not covered elsewhere in the rules will be assigned a point value by ChampCar Tech. To be clear, I do think it should be spelled out in the rules, that a small overbore is allowed to correct for wear. Either say "within factory repair specs" or say a maximum of .060" overbore. Edited February 6 by petawawarace 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 4 minutes ago, Grufton said: Wow. Just Wow. I hope this line of thought is not common. So maybe that is why I made the thread and agree with your line of thought, but also Bernie makes a solid point. Well defined rules are very important to this series. If not many teams can work the gray areas as we have seen of recent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Grufton said: Wow. Just Wow. I hope this line of thought is not common. I don’t think its common I think @hotrodis just pointing out that the rules don’t say you cant do this. Most everybody understands the intent ( I think) but the rules don’t say so. Edited February 6 by JDChristianson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 5 minutes ago, JDChristianson said: I don’t think its common I think @hotrodis just pointing out that the rules don’t say you cant do this. Most everybody understands the intent ( I think) but the rules don’t say so. 100% yes they do. A few posts above I quoted them. An oversized piston is not an OE part. Therefore it needs to be claimed and would be assigned a point value. If you claimed a 0.010" overbore on a tech sheet, my guess is they would assign you zero points. If you claimed a 0.5L stroke they would assign something. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanehutton Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 Why would anyone read the rule book, see things like oil coolers costing points and assume that replacing the crank and adding stroke would be free (even if there isn't a clear rule explaining it?) 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 15 minutes ago, petawawarace said: 100% yes they do. A few posts above I quoted them. An oversized piston is not an OE part. Therefore it needs to be claimed and would be assigned a point value. If you claimed a 0.010" overbore on a tech sheet, my guess is they would assign you zero points. If you claimed a 0.5L stroke they would assign something. 10 minutes ago, shanehutton said: Why would anyone read the rule book, see things like oil coolers costing points and assume that replacing the crank and adding stroke would be free (even if there isn't a clear rule explaining it?) It has been discussed and ignored for many years depending on which team you might be so I would think a little "difficult" to arbitrarily assign points on the spot when the various boards and committees couldn't come up with a value. As has been previously noted for free strokers and such: As for transmission gears, I’m not sure why gears, connecting rods or cranks are ever even mentioned. I have made it abundantly clear for 10 years that we will never tear open an engine or transmission. I myself would put any type of gear I want in my transmission, even special “unobtanium gears forged by the hammer of Thor”, because I know that they can never been seen. And then I would never ask the question or bring up the subject. Why then is it written that you can’t do that? Because people demand that it be in writing and I am only one vote. But we all know that a rule like that is not worth the paper it is written on. If the speed limit in your town is 55 but the cops say they won’t bother you under 70, what’s the speed limit? Mike 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 It's common knowledge that you can clean up the block & head surface. And a slight overbore to clean up a cylinder. Who claims these? I would think no one. I'm just saying that the allowances need to be clear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grufton Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 18 minutes ago, petawawarace said: 100% yes they do. A few posts above I quoted them. An oversized piston is not an OE part. Therefore it needs to be claimed and would be assigned a point value. If you claimed a 0.010" overbore on a tech sheet, my guess is they would assign you zero points. If you claimed a 0.5L stroke they would assign something. Assign something... up to and including EC. See: https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=166 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotrod Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, Ron_e said: It has been discussed and ignored for many years depending on which team you might be so I would think a little "difficult" to arbitrarily assign points on the spot when the various boards and committees couldn't come up with a value. As has been previously noted for free strokers and such: As for transmission gears, I’m not sure why gears, connecting rods or cranks are ever even mentioned. I have made it abundantly clear for 10 years that we will never tear open an engine or transmission. I myself would put any type of gear I want in my transmission, even special “unobtanium gears forged by the hammer of Thor”, because I know that they can never been seen. And then I would never ask the question or bring up the subject. Why then is it written that you can’t do that? Because people demand that it be in writing and I am only one vote. But we all know that a rule like that is not worth the paper it is written on. If the speed limit in your town is 55 but the cops say they won’t bother you under 70, what’s the speed limit? Mike The current administration is trying to clear up a lot of what Mike said & did. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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