gundy Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Last night while looking at the results from VIR I saw a Scion on the list, I did not think FRS's had been around that long. I guess I just lost track of time. After realizing they have been around 10 years, I thought is that old enough to race ChampCar? BCCR says "4.2.2.1. Vehicles less than 15 years old will not be assigned VPI values." In the past I have always heard "if you have a car that is over the 500 points or doesn't quite fit the rules come race in "EC" we would love to have you", that sort of says we will bend the rules to let you race. Went through my list of cars currently racing and found 45 cars less than 15 yrs old many are in "EC" but not all. 1 A 2009 Mazda MX-5 2 B 2009 Mazda MX-5 3 B 2009 Mini Cooper S 4 B 2009 Mazda MX-5 5 C 2009 BMW 128 I 6 D 2009 Mercury Grand Marquis 7 EC 2009 Mini Cooper S JCW 8 EC 2009 Mini Cooper S JCW 9 EC 2009 Ford FRS500S 10 F 2009 Mini Cooper 11 2009 Nissan 350z 12 B 2010 Mazda MX-5 13 B 2010 Mazda MX-5 14 B 2010 Mazda MX-5 15 C 2010 Volkswagen Jetta 16 EC 2010 Mazda MX-5 17 EC 2010 Lotus Evora GTN 18 A 2011 Ford Fiesta 19 D 2011 Ford Crown Vic 20 D 2011 Ford Crown Vic 21 EC 2011 Porsche Boxster 22 B 2012 Volkswagen Jetta 23 B 2012 Honda Civic Si 24 EC 2012 Honda Civic Si 25 EC 2012 Ford Mustang 26 A 2013 Chevrolet Sonic 27 B 2013 Mazda MX-5 28 B 2013 Scion FR-S 29 EC 2013 Scion FRS 30 2013 Honda Fit 31 EC 2014 Ford Focus 32 A 2015 Nissan Micra 33 EC 2015 Scion FRS 34 2015 Honda Fit 35 EC 2016 BMW M4 36 EC 2016 Mazda MX-5 37 2016 Mazda MX-5 38 EC 2017 Honda Civic 39 EC 2017 Honda Civic 40 EC 2018 Toyota GT86 41 EC 2019 Nissan 370Z 42 EC 2019 BMW M2 43 EC 2020 Nissan 370Z 44 EC 2020 Mazda MX-5 45 2021 Secret Project Bio 3.0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 Good question. All rules sometimes seem a little bendy and such. Not sure all these newer cars make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 The 15 year rule was added after some newer cars had already been given a VPI. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundy Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 4 hours ago, ABR-Glen said: The 15 year rule was added after some newer cars had already been given a VPI. true, the rule first appeared in the 2022 BCCR these cars raced in 2022 MAK Racing 81 2013 Mazda MX-5 B AOA Racing 85 2010 Mazda MX-5 EC RCD RV Supercenter 104 2009 Mercury Grand Marquis D TraqCarRental 107 2014 Ford Focus EC Shake and Bake Racing 222 2016 Mazda MX-5 EC Team Octane 245 2009 Mini Cooper S JCW EC Team Octane 348 2009 Mini Cooper S JCW EC Flatout Nemesis 352 2009 Mazda MX-5 B Battle Scarred Motorsports 412 2011 Ford Crown Vic D 4 Paws Racing 441 2015 Scion FRS EC Giles 535 2010 Lotus Evora GTN EC AOA Racing 585 2010 Mazda MX-5 B Motorkars Racing 614 2010 Volkswagen JETTA C Team Honda Research West 721 2012 Honda Civic Si B Hangloose Racing 813 2018 Toyota GT86 EC Track Advantage 877 2019 BMW M2 EC Hippocratic Oafs 911 2009 Mazda MX5 A Anderson Lumber 920 2012 Ford Mustang EC Team Sahlen Salt 945 2011 Porsche Boxster EC Viking Chug MotorSports 969 2009 Mazda MX-5 B these cars have raced in 2023 AOA Racing 155 2010 Mazda MX-5 B AOA Racing 585 2010 Mazda MX-5 B Wittenauer Motorsports 732 2009 Mini Cooper F NORSPORT 347 2012 Honda Civic Si EC Hangloose Racing 813 2013 Scion FR-S B Some of the 2023 cars have not race previously so they were built after the rule was in effect, unless they were very slow builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachMK21 Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 I could be wrong, but I believe when that rule was put in the 2022 rule book, it allowed the new models to be continued to be built. For example, the MX-5 (NC) runs from 2006 to 2015. Also, I think EC is exempt from that rule, but ChampCar has the right to exclude them too. I see the ND Miata on there and I believe that was a special case due to an agreement CC had with a partner/sponsor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the5 Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 I put a petition in to change this rule. Not sure why it was put in place as you dont see these new cars beating everyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 594 Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 @gundy, You could run a 2019 Fiat 500 abarth for 250 points. Class F dominator? LOL. Lots of these new cars are cheap to build... how much is a 2014 Focus on CoPart? I think they give them to you. Quit crying about generalities and complain about case by case issues. Like the C3 vet. it's old, it's expensive to built to be fast, it's too fast, it needs to be 400 points or more not 150. I'm not joking I hate the C3 GBU car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obscene Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 maybe it's us. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKRiggs Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) I've been doing some research into the performance of make&models across the years and tracks we run....part of that research is the age of the vehicles. Very small sample size (2 tracks across 3 years of races at each) but this is what I've found. I don't think these would change much once the full data set is compiled. Nothing jumps out...other than there are a lot of "old" cars. Average age across all makes/models...just over 27 years. Edited March 6 by TKRiggs clarification 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throoster Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 Have you delved deeper and looked at the standard deviation and/or median/mode? A straight average can be a good place to start, but it can also hide a lot of weird quirks in a data set. Remember that there are "Lies, damned lies, and statistics". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtybird222 Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 Ok the Mercury Grandma Keith is on a panther chassis that is how old? 2 hours ago, the5 said: I put a petition in to change this rule. Not sure why it was put in place as you dont see these new cars beating everyone. There are other series out there that allow for you to run whatever car you want and class you based on a certain performance ratio. I'm impartial to the rule because I don't see a MY2015 Fit, BRZ, or Fiesta coming out there to take the overall W. The latter could be great F class cars. Obviously there are other cars built in the last 15 years that would obliterate the field and caveats for those things should definitely be in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 1 minute ago, dirtybird222 said: Ok the Mercury Grandma Keith is on a panther chassis that is how old? I needed a good laugh this morning, thanks!! I'm assuming thats an auto-correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 Before he left, the previous CEO added several newer cars to the list. Since he was the boss at the time, that was his prerogative. The board in place at the time the 15 year rule went into effect thought it best to limit cars with direct injection, 8 speed autos, etc. It's not just the cars that have those, its the potential for swaps utilizing parts of these cars. Obviously, the series has to have a plan to allow newer cars into the series, but slowly letting them in to avoid speed and cost creep and maintaining the balance of competition is always going to be a tightrope to maintain. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETR Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 I suppose the 2022 list can include 2008 MY's. A good example is the 2008 NC miata overall win at NOLA in Nov '22. The Sunday finish was close but its speed was unmatched. Beautiful car too. Another NC (2006) absolutely cleaned up both days earlier in the year at H2R. I'm not opposed to the influx of new(er) cars with the passage of time, but it warrants VPI reductions across the board as newer/faster 500-ish point cars enter the fold. Unreasonable? Yup, but that's the system. Though it's not meant to, the performance bar moves with time and old VPI's are relatively stuck unless someone sways opinions with a petition. The VPI system and swaps will be quite strained in 5 years I think. I feel like there's a tipping point in the coming years and CC has some difficult decisions to consider. Power/weight might be on the table soon if not already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the5 Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 1 hour ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: Before he left, the previous CEO added several newer cars to the list. Since he was the boss at the time, that was his prerogative. The board in place at the time the 15 year rule went into effect thought it best to limit cars with direct injection, 8 speed autos, etc. It's not just the cars that have those, its the potential for swaps utilizing parts of these cars. Obviously, the series has to have a plan to allow newer cars into the series, but slowly letting them in to avoid speed and cost creep and maintaining the balance of competition is always going to be a tightrope to maintain. So why put a Blanket 15 year rule in? Why not if they just have the DI and 8 speed Autos ect, give them an accurate VPI? There are also many new cars that dont have these and are only limited because of an arbitrary 15 year rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) 10 minutes ago, the5 said: Why not if they just have the DI and 8 speed Autos ect, give them an accurate VPI? As mentioned above, if a DI or eight speed car is put on the VPI list, at any price, the driveline becomes available for swappers… It’s could upset the balance with modern automatics and super efficient DI engines Edited March 6 by Team Infiniti 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindspin311 Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 Just because its on the list doesn't mean it's easy to implement. Modern tech, modern electronics. Might need to swap over the hood latch from the donor tunaslapper for the fancy DI motor to actually start. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 Never underestimate what someone would do to build a race car they thought was advantageous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 594 Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 17 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Never underestimate what someone would do to build a race car they thought was advantageous. Yep. Just look at the GBU C3. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) 13 hours ago, gundy said: true, the rule first appeared in the 2022 BCCR these cars raced in 2022 The wording could certainly be more clear, but I believe the intent of the rule is not to add any more cars <15YO to the VPI list, the ones that are on there already get to stay and can be run whether they were built/raced in 2022 or prior. I think Chris(?) made a post that explained the rationale in more detail. Edited March 6 by ABR-Glen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 1 hour ago, ETR said: I suppose the 2022 list can include 2008 MY's. A good example is the 2008 NC miata overall win at NOLA in Nov '22. The Sunday finish was close but its speed was unmatched. Beautiful car too. Another NC (2006) absolutely cleaned up both days earlier in the year at H2R. I'm not opposed to the influx of new(er) cars with the passage of time, but it warrants VPI reductions across the board as newer/faster 500-ish point cars enter the fold. Unreasonable? Yup, but that's the system. Though it's not meant to, the performance bar moves with time and old VPI's are relatively stuck unless someone sways opinions with a petition. The VPI system and swaps will be quite strained in 5 years I think. I feel like there's a tipping point in the coming years and CC has some difficult decisions to consider. Power/weight might be on the table soon if not already. Or the limit for penalty laps goes up. Maybe in 2025 it's 550 VPI. We have to allow newer cars, I have raced old car and it's a pain. I have a 1990 NA 1.6 Miata and a NC. The NA feels really old! I think I spend more money repairing the NA... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robmink Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 I petitioned in late 2021 to add the MY17 Jetta to the VPI list. I didn't want to race it, I wanted the motor. Why? Because the motor I currently use, the 2.5 inline 5, went out of production in 2014. 9 years later, low mileage junk yard ones are getting hard to find, and I am not an engine builder. I like to go to LKQ, buy a low mileage engine off the rack, drop it in and go. VW built 1.4s by the boat load and I can get a good, low mileage one for less than $600. I can't buy gaskets to rebuild one for that. Anyway, I was told by a member of the technical committee that no cars less than 15 years old would be added simply because they wanted to reduce the number of VPI requests, not that it had anything to do with modern tech, or performance potential. When I pointed out that there was nothing in the rule book stating that (this was in 2021), he said it was going to be added and they hadn't gotten around to publishing anything yet. I pointed out that if it was not in the rule book, it is not a rule, but apparently that was not a winning argument. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 37 minutes ago, Robmink said: I petitioned in late 2021 to add the MY17 Jetta to the VPI list. I didn't want to race it, I wanted the motor. Why? Because the motor I currently use, the 2.5 inline 5, went out of production in 2014. 9 years later, low mileage junk yard ones are getting hard to find, and I am not an engine builder. I like to go to LKQ, buy a low mileage engine off the rack, drop it in and go. VW built 1.4s by the boat load and I can get a good, low mileage one for less than $600. I can't buy gaskets to rebuild one for that. Anyway, I was told by a member of the technical committee that no cars less than 15 years old would be added simply because they wanted to reduce the number of VPI requests, not that it had anything to do with modern tech, or performance potential. When I pointed out that there was nothing in the rule book stating that (this was in 2021), he said it was going to be added and they hadn't gotten around to publishing anything yet. I pointed out that if it was not in the rule book, it is not a rule, but apparently that was not a winning argument. Well, they aren't under any obligation to assign a VPI to every request either, so they don't really need that rule to tell you no. In light of that, it does make sense that the reason for adding the rule would be to cut down on the number of requests that they would end up denying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKRiggs Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) 7 hours ago, Throoster said: Have you delved deeper and looked at the standard deviation and/or median/mode? A straight average can be a good place to start, but it can also hide a lot of weird quirks in a data set. I have not. Happy to share the complete data set once I'm done compiling/normalizing it (going to take awhile). What I'm trying to do is get "the lay of the land" from a competition standpoint...any outliers...any surprises...trends...things like that. Nothing really surprising thus far...other than an Integra winning by 10 laps (over 2nd place) at VIR (2021 12 hour) and that 45% of the entries are made up of BMWs/Miatas (probably not surprising - small sample size). Edited March 6 by TKRiggs clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundy Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 3 hours ago, ABR-Glen said: The wording could certainly be more clear, but I believe the intent of the rule is not to add any more cars <15YO to the VPI list, the ones that are on there already get to stay and can be run whether they were built/raced in 2022 or prior. I think Chris(?) made a post that explained the rationale in more detail. I agree that the 2022 season needed to allow for existing cars that were built before the rule took effect, but several of the cars raced in 2023 were new to ChampCar cars never raced in 2022. With this logic someone could start building a 2022 car for the 2024 season and expect to run it in a class. I could argue for or against the rule but it is a written rule that should be followed or removed. I also beleive that current VPI's should be lowered a small amount each year to help keep up with newer cars comming in each year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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