Racer7x Posted March 21 Report Share Posted March 21 (edited) It looks like from the January BOD meeting minutes that it will be increased from the current 300pts to 400pts when VPI's get updated, so the pitchforks can be put back in the shed for the time being. Minutes 1.17.23 (1).pdf Edited March 21 by Racer7x 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted March 21 Report Share Posted March 21 (edited) My goodness that seems high. Seriously good luck to any non-IMSA, limited funds team showing up with an old corvette. I don’t know squat about racing cars that old though. Just seems high. Carry on. Edited March 21 by enginerd 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted March 21 Report Share Posted March 21 22 minutes ago, enginerd said: My goodness that seems high. Seriously good luck to any non-IMSA, limited funds team showing up with an old corvette. I don’t know squat about racing cars that old though. Just seems high. Carry on. Might as well just tell Riley to not come back. A while back I made a hypothetical concerning just this situation using Hendrick Motorsports and playing whack a mole with every car they decide to build out of their race shop with fabricators, dynos, shaker rigs, windtunnels and pro drivers. Anything Riley builds is going to be fast and hurt a lot of feelings. Just hope they don't choose a car a few other people race as then the points increases will impact more than one team. btw-Not even two pages of minutes for a 2 hour meeting. lolzzzz ok *Speaking of old; The chassis under the C3 Vette debuted in 1963. It really isn't very good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted March 21 Report Share Posted March 21 33 minutes ago, enginerd said: My goodness that seems high. Seriously good luck to any non-IMSA, limited funds team showing up with an old corvette. I don’t know squat about racing cars that old though. Just seems high. Carry on. Seems ok to me. So so many things can be done for no points. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmabarone Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 13 hours ago, Bandit said: Might as well just tell Riley to not come back. A while back I made a hypothetical concerning just this situation using Hendrick Motorsports and playing whack a mole with every car they decide to build out of their race shop with fabricators, dynos, shaker rigs, windtunnels and pro drivers. Anything Riley builds is going to be fast and hurt a lot of feelings. Just hope they don't choose a car a few other people race as then the points increases will impact more than one team. btw-Not even two pages of minutes for a 2 hour meeting. lolzzzz ok *Speaking of old; The chassis under the C3 Vette debuted in 1963. It really isn't very good. It isn't just the technology and tools that gives them an edge. They are going to dig through the VPI list and find the unicorns. That's their day job so it is an easy transition there. Real question: How much money do you think Riley Technologies is putting into that car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted March 22 Administrators Report Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, jmabarone said: It isn't just the technology and tools that gives them an edge. They are going to dig through the VPI list and find the unicorns. That's their day job so it is an easy transition there. Real question: How much money do you think Riley Technologies is putting into that car? Real Question: other than labor costs, less than you would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted March 22 Administrators Report Share Posted March 22 Jeez. I mean what would happen if Riley ever got hold of a Porsche? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachMK21 Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 4 minutes ago, Bill Strong said: Jeez. I mean what would happen if Riley ever got hold of a Porsche? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmabarone Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 10 minutes ago, Bill Strong said: Real Question: other than labor costs, less than you would think. Maybe real answer That was exactly my point. Even at that, I would bet that Riley is only paying to keep the building open after hours for work on the car. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted March 22 Administrators Report Share Posted March 22 Well, hopefully, the BOD applies this logic to the cars in this series that win repeatedly. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted March 22 Administrators Report Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, jmabarone said: Maybe real answer That was exactly my point. Even at that, I would bet that Riley is only paying to keep the building open after hours for work on the car. Jim Matthews owns the car. The car is paid for by Jim Matthews. The car is a customer car that Team Riley works on during the day. Jim also owns Kar-Kraft. And nobody ever talks about the elephant in the room.Bob. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachMK21 Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 11 minutes ago, Bill Strong said: Jim Matthews owns the car. The car is paid for by Jim Matthews. The car is a customer car that Team Riley works on during the day. Jim also owns Kar-Kraft. And nobody ever talks about the elephant in the room.Bob. Did you just call Bob an elephant? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted March 22 Administrators Report Share Posted March 22 Just now, CoachMK21 said: Did you just call Bob an elephant? I visited during the COVID lockdown. He was at his desk hand drawing wheel bearings and hubs. It was so freaking cool watching him work. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 Being honest why is it so hard to find information about this build and its claims. I have done enough research on the chassis in general by now that I have my doubts about the legality of the car even starting at 300 points. I would rather have the information more readily available for the membership to scrutinize and police that particular build than to just add points. However I do appreciate that the series at least tried to do something about it. VPI increase is a quick and effective way to resolve it for now, and there aren't many (any?) other C3s I know racing out there so probably doesn't affect any other current teams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Bill Strong said: Real Question: other than labor costs, less than you would think. Labour cost needed to build an F1 car ten years ago: approx 240,000 hours worth. Other than that, F1 cars are cheap. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmabarone Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Bill Strong said: Jim Matthews owns the car. The car is paid for by Jim Matthews. The car is a customer car that Team Riley works on during the day. Jim also owns Kar-Kraft. And nobody ever talks about the elephant in the room.Bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEE DEE Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, Bill Strong said: Jeez. I mean what would happen if Riley ever got hold of a Porsche? Or a BMW. I wonder if 100 points would be added to an E30. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 (edited) 3 hours ago, jmabarone said: Real question: How much money do you think Riley Technologies is putting into that car? Late 70s Vettes are not expensive and neither are the parts for the most part. Small blocks are cheap to rebuild at this power level and so are the trannies. The only thing on that car that makes it fast that gets expensive are the tires. Really don't get why some people think it's an expensive car. It's expensive to run compared to other Champcars due to fuel and tires. Now just throwing the parts together won't make it a winner. Knowledge in how to set it up and good drivers make it fast. That rear suspension can be rather evil. Speaking of that, Bob Riley designed a multilink rear suspension for them in the 70s. (I'm sure some here have heard of the Greenwood Vettes) I'd say he knows a bit more about that chassis than the average Champcar builder. Edited March 22 by Bandit 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted March 22 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted March 22 (edited) 6 hours ago, Bill Strong said: 5 hours ago, Bill Strong said: Jim Matthews owns the car. The car is paid for by Jim Matthews. The car is a customer car that Team Riley works on during the day. Jim also owns Kar-Kraft. And nobody ever talks about the elephant in the room.Bob. Some of us never heard of Bill Riley until we began racing in what we thought was an amateur series for low budget cars and teams. Now Bob, on the other hand, is very well known to some of us from his work at Riley/Pratt, Protofab?, etc. He worked with us at Roush during their heyday in Trans Am and IMSA when they won Daytona about 11 teen years in a row. 3 hours ago, DEE DEE said: Or a BMW. I wonder if 100 points would be added to an E30. No, that’s not how it works. We look at a vehicles' attributes and compare it to others on the VPI list, as well as running the numbers through a couple different VPI calculators that members have developed when trying to determine VPI’s. Once again, to go over history, the fact that many American iron vehicles were brought in way below what they should have been rated at was an incentive by the old board and CEO to get more American iron into the series. I guess some of you were happy with that car being at 150 points and kicking everybody’s ass. Apparently the management didn’t feel that was very good for the rest of the low budget teams when they asked the TAC to re-evaluate this car for the 2nd time in the past 2-3 years. And perhaps, if the TAC’s first recommendation was followed, we may not have had to evaluate it a second time and return a similar answer to the board. I can’t blame the board for not wanting to Whack-a-Mole this car too hard. But these are the problems that occur when you are trying to put thousands of cars on an equal footing, and some were obviously way, way undervalued for years. Yes, it’s easy for teams that have the time and money to cherry pick the list and find the best possible candidate for a build. Not every low budget team in this series has that luxury. Edited March 22 by mcoppola 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman_99 - C Rallo Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, Bill Strong said: I visited during the COVID lockdown. He was at his desk hand drawing wheel bearings and hubs. It was so freaking cool watching him work. He does it old school... Seeing his name on a bunch of drawings from the GT40 was cool and he is involved in the continuation car which is even cooler. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grufton Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bill Strong said: Jeez. I mean what would happen if Riley ever got hold of a Porsche? Seems like folks are already sharpening the pitchforks over the Porsches. Plenty of chatter that the Boxster is undervalued (which I agree), and a well thought out petition on the S2 as well. Edited March 22 by Grufton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 12 minutes ago, mcoppola said: We look at a vehicles attributes and compare it to others on the VPI’ list, when trying to determine VPI’s. Meanwhile 944s with S2 motors and almost as much gas (much more range) as the Vette don't get a second look by the BOD. The mob got what they wanted. Meanwhile, after claims of "I won't race if GBU is there!" and such, Daytona has 137 entries. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman_99 - C Rallo Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Murray said: Being honest why is it so hard to find information about this build and its claims. I have done enough research on the chassis in general by now that I have my doubts about the legality of the car even starting at 300 points. I would rather have the information more readily available for the membership to scrutinize and police that particular build than to just add points. However I do appreciate that the series at least tried to do something about it. VPI increase is a quick and effective way to resolve it for now, and there aren't many (any?) other C3s I know racing out there so probably doesn't affect any other current teams. I'd be willing to bet that the engine should be taking cam and valvetrain points, but hasn't been updated to the new rules. Something to look at next time at least. Interestingly, valve covers are free, but on an engine like the SBC, they are actually a perf upgrade for many applications, as a taller valve cover allows more cam lift. I'm not saying we should make a rule for it, the last thing we need are more points that only effect certain cars, but it is interesting... A fuel capacity limit would help the situation and others that haven't shown up yet and therefore help avoid some whack a mole. A few cars already running could use a little trim as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman_99 - C Rallo Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Bandit said: Meanwhile 944s with S2 motors and almost as much gas (much more range) as the Vette don't get a second look by the BOD. The mob got what they wanted. Meanwhile, after claims of "I won't race if GBU is there!" and such, Daytona has 137 entries. The door is open for a max fuel capacity rule to be written for 2024, we just need to get behind it. VPI adjustments can be made quarterly, lets get on it if it needs one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 4 minutes ago, Wheelman_99 - C Rallo said: The door is open for a max fuel capacity rule to be written for 2024, we just need to get behind it. And yet nothing for the poor slobs with small tanks. "We'll take away your fuel if we think you have too much. Just better build something the mob likes otherwise you're going to get hammered." *It's not just GBU. Mustangs got their VPI's raised while having tiny tanks. I see a trend... Cars that sound good are not popular with the mob. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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