turbogrill Posted March 22 Report Share Posted March 22 Cheaty tires seems to be the hot topic for this year. Several suggestions has been to allow free tire changes for a flat tire due to acccidents or nails on the track but not tire change if it's due to worn out. Who is going to determine the cause of a tire change? Seems like an impossible task. If we want to have this rule, I think it has to be a X min penalty rule just like the fueling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitham32803 Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 There are other originations that do this. One way would be for each set of tires on the car prior to start would get a mark from Champcar. if you have a tire change you need someone to see the old tire and mark the new one. At the end of the race all 4 tires must have their marks or you get a prenatally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 17 hours ago, turbogrill said: Cheaty tires seems to be the hot topic for this year. Several suggestions has been to allow free tire changes for a flat tire due to acccidents or nails on the track but not tire change if it's due to worn out. Who is going to determine the cause of a tire change? Seems like an impossible task. If we want to have this rule, I think it has to be a X min penalty rule just like the fueling. What are the actual rules for 2023 tire changes? I don’t remember any exemptions to the ‘one tool’ rule that I think is in place for 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 1 minute ago, enginerd said: What are the actual rules for 2023 tire changes? I don’t remember any exemptions to the ‘one tool’ rule that I think is in place for 2023. I think hes referring to the recently released petitions. Personally I think monitoring tire changes is a lost cause. So many logistical issues. I do like the proposal for charging points for certain fast tires (still 180 treadwear or greater). Along with the tool restrictions already in place, it should solve alot of the problems. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman_99 - C Rallo Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 Marks can rub off, but could be a good place to start. Fun fact, much of pro racing uses RFID readers and chips for tires now. There are staff on pit road to inspect what comes off. photos can be taken. could leave tire in sight on hot side of wall until close inspection. Tire and wheel that just came off would be warm as well. Also would be allowed only one tire per stop this way presumably. Oh and no fuel and flat tire at the same time perhaps? No fuel and tires at the same time at all... separate stops? Could end up with a tire driven until it fails due to wear... might be hard to tell be the time the car makes it in.... but that seems self penalizing best case. Assigning points to certain tires makes sense... until the team swaps them off before the end of the race. How do we feel about teams that run different tires in the rain? potential safety area to "tread" lightly in, but seems like an advantage to be bought and fitting the intent of tire limiting... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman_99 - C Rallo Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 What about FWD platforms or other cars that don't wear the tires evenly? Allow free rotations, but not swaps? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman_99 - C Rallo Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 Not allowing tire changing and fueling on the same stop seems like the very simplest solution. Can play with the time limit on a tire stop... depending on how much we think tires can gain you... 1 minute per tire? A random flat may sting a bit more, but jumping/cutting curbs and dropping wheels makes you faster and can have a price. Me again... I drank an energy drink with lunch... No black flags for tire changes, let's not clog up that system or the flag net please. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelman_99 - C Rallo Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 lol wow, it just merged posts! but not this time? only two at a time... or 4 if fast enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 9 minutes ago, Wheelman_99 - C Rallo said: Not allowing tire changing and fueling on the same stop seems like the very simplest solution. Can play with the time limit on a tire stop... depending on how much we think tires can gain you... 1 minute per tire? A random flat may sting a bit more, but jumping/cutting curbs and dropping wheels makes you faster and can have a price. Me again... I drank an energy drink with lunch... No black flags for tire changes, let's not clog up that system or the flag net please. I just don't see how any sort of monitoring will be possible with the current staff. Its just not feasible to do with 130+ cars at some tracks. If you add a point value to certain tires, that takes the issue away. With the current restrictions on tools used for tire changes, I highly doubt anyone is going to run RE-71s for 7.5hrs and then change all 4 at the end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted March 23 Author Report Share Posted March 23 What problem are we trying to solve? People changing tires after a race day? (so using 4+ tires a weekend). Or people changing tires during the actual race? (4+ tires a day) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmabarone Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 What's the rule for taking a car behind pit wall? If you are going to mandate a 5 minute pit stop to change 2 tires or I can go behind the wall for 2 minutes to change all 4, guess what I'm going to do? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachMK21 Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 18 minutes ago, jmabarone said: What's the rule for taking a car behind pit wall? If you are going to mandate a 5 minute pit stop to change 2 tires or I can go behind the wall for 2 minutes to change all 4, guess what I'm going to do? In one of Dana's Bravo Flag videos he talked about teams doing this and basically said, "Don't do it" or don't be surprised if you're held up at pit out for who knows how long. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 The other thing these types of proposals can't take into account are the teams that like to bring a few sets of tires they have almost worn out in other races and use them up at a race. Not many do this, but talk to Ed he brings it up when this subject is discussed. IF we do a tire rule, I like some version of either what the TAC brought up or Troy where we put points on a tire if deemed too quick. Troy's petition said any new 200tw tire gets automatically added to the list until deemed not to be. That's a new twist, might answer some of the typical pushback to a specific tire rule when someone always says what happens when a new one comes out next week. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMoneyWasters Posted March 23 Report Share Posted March 23 If you had told me 11 years ago when I first started racing in this series that we'd be talking about how many tire changes was too many I would have questioned your sanity. I think in 50+ races we have changed 3 tires during a race. Oh the times they are a changin'. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittenauer Motorsports Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 For Sunday's race at NCM, we started on 4 used Hankooks. The right rear was a little sketchy to begin with and driver didn't like how it felt, so we put a used Maxxis on the right rear at our first stop. That's all we had left. Used up our "old" tires from last year and managed to finish in 6th place with the MINI. Need to be very careful with the law of unintended consequences while bandying about these tire rules ideas. Teams with money will find something to do with that money. If it isn't tires, it will be wind tunnel testing, professional driver coaching, more test days, something. If there is a penalty for changing tires, that incentivizes teams to start each race with new tires. Kind of defeats the purpose of entry level series keeping the cost down. It might lead to poor decisions, like thinking you can make that tire last another two hours only to wreck the car when it blows, and maybe wreck someone else's car. I trust the board will have a lengthy, thoughtful, debate on this subject. John 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillar K Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 There are teams that have more resources ( money, engineering, facilities, manpower ). That’s what this is all about. If they choose to spend more, that’s their choice. Is in in the spirit of Champcar? Maybe not. Penalizing tire changes will have unintended consequences, as John pointed out. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindspin311 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 You can't. Move on. Let's search for a more holistic way to improve the series. Like the fact that FPV values are completely imbalanced based on performance gained. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 I'm sorry, but I'll be the unpopular guy for a minute here. Get over the idea that you're going to limit tires. Look at the history and ask yourself why would this time be any different. Back about 1990, Yokohama showed up with the A008. Put everyone on their ear about DOT rated tires. There was much grumbling, then people got on with it and went racing, other tire companies joined the show. Sometime in the late '90's the Goodyear Eagle GSC went out of production and the Hoosier R4 (I think that was the number) was the only real game in town, by 2010 Hoosier was up to the R6 I think and got the name of Purple Crack. SCCA moved from Toyo's to Hoosiers for Spec Miata and at least in the 205-50-15 they were a little cheaper. About 2008 along came Chump and Lemons and the tires have been steadily improving since then. What year did Chump become Champ, 2017? Champ gets some traction and change in leadership and the rules start allowing faster cars, car counts go up. Lap times get faster, people start looking for that "better tire". Then people think they can do an end-run on the problem by limiting "the fast tire". Every year there is some tire that is better. Here's another way to explain it: 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindspin311 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 Preach, brother. Like I said, there are much larger and more overarching changes to the series that can be made to "fix" things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtybird222 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 (edited) 15 hours ago, MMiskoe said: I'm sorry, but I'll be the unpopular guy for a minute here. Get over the idea that you're going to limit tires. Look at the history and ask yourself why would this time be any different. Back about 1990, Yokohama showed up with the A008. Put everyone on their ear about DOT rated tires. There was much grumbling, then people got on with it and went racing, other tire companies joined the show. Sometime in the late '90's the Goodyear Eagle GSC went out of production and the Hoosier R4 (I think that was the number) was the only real game in town, by 2010 Hoosier was up to the R6 I think and got the name of Purple Crack. SCCA moved from Toyo's to Hoosiers for Spec Miata and at least in the 205-50-15 they were a little cheaper. About 2008 along came Chump and Lemons and the tires have been steadily improving since then. What year did Chump become Champ, 2017? Champ gets some traction and change in leadership and the rules start allowing faster cars, car counts go up. Lap times get faster, people start looking for that "better tire". Then people think they can do an end-run on the problem by limiting "the fast tire". Every year there is some tire that is better. Here's another way to explain it: Dude I totally agree with you. This is one of the most convoluted things I've seen on this board. "Points for fast tires" and "Limit tire changes" the former would almost very likely turn this into an unofficial spec tire series (likely supply issues as well) and the latter would cause nothing but frustration for teams operating all over the budget spectrum. Just as others say "We didn't choose your platform" no one is forcing you to buy the slower tire. You're perfectly capable of making a strategic decision to go with a fast tire that wears sooner or a slower tire that will get you through a 14 hour race. There are also tracks like PBIR (RIP BROTHER) that are cheese graters on tires. We would buy the cheapest tires possible there and go through two sets to the chord for a 7+7 weekend on a FWD car that we rotated tires on mid-way through. I recall a friend running his neon there for the 38 hour race back in the day and going through like 9 sets. What happens if I get dive bombed by 4 different Miatas on four different laps on turn 7 at Sebring and lose 4 claimed tires and have no back ups now in the event a 5th Miata decides to inflict its ill-will on me? I say this jokingly but we've honestly lost two wheels and tires in the same race on the same turn from two different Miatas from the same bone-headed move. Edited March 24 by dirtybird222 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 Of course there’s provision for broken rims, If a track is eating tires, either they will waive that penalty on site or everybody will serve that penalty, there’s no issue here aside from buying 2sec a lap for 0 points. Everything else in this low cost series is points for speed, why are tires not a concern when they can easily double a teams expenditure to do well? Isn’t this about Cheep racing? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 13 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Isn’t this about Cheep racing? It used to be. It’s been slipping away from that for a long time. there are a lot of folks in the world with a lot of money and cheap racing to them is not the same as it is to you and me. Can you imagine even building a carfor endurance racing that used 3xx wide tires that you’d have to replace after a race or weekend? Not me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 1 hour ago, JDChristianson said: It used to be. It’s been slipping away from that for a long time. Yeah I get it, have witnessed it firsthand but am willing to fight till stamped out like a discarded cigarette. Our tire budget has tripled, using one set per event, not doing any better, just keeping up… 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted March 24 Author Report Share Posted March 24 1 hour ago, JDChristianson said: It used to be. It’s been slipping away from that for a long time. there are a lot of folks in the world with a lot of money and cheap racing to them is not the same as it is to you and me. Can you imagine even building a carfor endurance racing that used 3xx wide tires that you’d have to replace after a race or weekend? Not me. How many cars do that? Lot of Miatas on 245 RS4s are doing great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 14 minutes ago, turbogrill said: How many cars do that? Lot of Miatas on 245 RS4s are doing great I think if we took the time to look it all up, the Miata’s are not doing as well as they used too. Not bad, but not as good. The point I was making is what some folks do and still consider it cheap racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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