MMiskoe Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 3 hours ago, Team Infiniti said: Isn’t this about Cheep racing? Right along with unicorn farts and Leprechans with pots of gold. Maybe on there should be a snipe hunt the night before the race, winner gets to take pole at the start. To make it enjoyable you need to find a group who wants to spend the same as you in time, effort and money. Otherwise someone will just out do you in one or more of those three things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 10 minutes ago, MMiskoe said: To make it enjoyable you need to find a group who wants to spend the same as you in time, effort and money. Otherwise someone will just out do you in one or more of those three things We did, it was ChumpCar, yeah we like ChampCar so still willing to fight. What net or ammo do snipes require? 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted March 25 Author Report Share Posted March 25 13 hours ago, JDChristianson said: I think if we took the time to look it all up, the Miata’s are not doing as well as they used too. Not bad, but not as good. The point I was making is what some folks do and still consider it cheap racing. Curious what costs have gone up? For us hotel/towing/entry fee/food/time from work/babysitters are much higher than many if the other cost. Sure, buying RS4 4 tires instead 8 autocross tires would save people money. As for the car builds, repairs and prep are much higher costs for us then Occasional performance parts. Coilovers are a one time cost of $1500. Cut springs are $80 but 40hours of work to get it right Just curious where people think the cost is. WRL is crazy because they race expensive cars and I guess sometimes have engines built professionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted March 25 Report Share Posted March 25 5 hours ago, turbogrill said: Curious what costs have gone up? For us hotel/towing/entry fee/food/time from work/babysitters are much higher than many if the other cost. Sure, buying RS4 4 tires instead 8 autocross tires would save people money. As for the car builds, repairs and prep are much higher costs for us then Occasional performance parts. Coilovers are a one time cost of $1500. Cut springs are $80 but 40hours of work to get it right Just curious where people think the cost is. WRL is crazy because they race expensive cars and I guess sometimes have engines built professionally. Well our car started out a 1.6 1990 Miata that with fuel mileage and reliability could finish in the top 5 at road America. With the 1.6 it could turn laps between 3:00 and 3:10. Now it can turn laps in the low 2:50s with a best of 2:49. Still with reliability and going 2 hours on fuel we can get in the top 5. It didn’t get 10 to 15 seconds faster for free. Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go? It took things like an eco tech swap, big brake upgrade, full aero, bigger faster tires, bigger wheels to go with the tires. Now that we can go faster, the car is under higher loads and stresses so it takes more repair and parts to keep going. (Axles, hubs, brakes, transmissions, and so on) Did I mention that our place in the pack is mostly the same. Our drivers have gotten better as well. The faster the series gets the more expensive it is to chase the front. Fun can still be had for less money but not as close to the front as it used to be. That’s pretty much how life goes though. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd K Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 Because the bigger wallets always find a way to stay at the front, I say keep it simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETR Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 On 3/23/2023 at 10:17 AM, petawawarace said: I do like the proposal for charging points for certain fast tires (still 180 treadwear or greater). Along with the tool restrictions already in place, it should solve alot of the problems. I can get on board with this as well. It's a speed-for-points decision similar to ones we make with other aspects of the car. Couple this with time stamped tech sheets being a clickable link on the race roster (please make this happen) and I'm happy. If a team is running mixed tires for a weekend, they should still have to select the fast tire in the tech sheet. CC hasn't banned tires, teams make choices for speed, and enforcement is relatively easy. Any self policing beyond that (especially activities during a race) and we've left the chat. I'm just too busy with my own efforts. I also feel that the larger teams *tend* to have more bandwidth for self policing complexity, so more of that isn't a good thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 1 hour ago, ETR said: I can get on board with this as well. It's a speed-for-points decision similar to ones we make with other aspects of the car. Couple this with time stamped tech sheets being a clickable link on the race roster (please make this happen) and I'm happy. If a team is running mixed tires for a weekend, they should still have to select the fast tire in the tech sheet. CC hasn't banned tires, teams make choices for speed, and enforcement is relatively easy. Any self policing beyond that (especially activities during a race) and we've left the chat. I'm just too busy with my own efforts. I also feel that the larger teams *tend* to have more bandwidth for self policing complexity, so more of that isn't a good thing. Points for fast tires. Very interesting. Potentially good way to equalize as some fast cars with high Vpi would get them with out laps. Others could choose them as performance enhancing. The downside for us would be not having re71’s to use in the rain, rs4’s make you feel like your goi g to die in the rain on our car. hmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 2 minutes ago, JDChristianson said: The downside for us would be not having re71’s to use in the rain, rs4’s make you feel like your goi g to die in the rain on our car. There are other better choices for rain tires, just not so much when things start drying out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 3 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: There are other better choices for rain tires, just not so much when things start drying out. What is a better 200tw rain tire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JDChristianson said: What is a better 200tw rain tire? Not necessarily 200tw. That’s what I mean, you give up the ability to go fast in the dry to have a safe rain tire. My choice is the conti extr contact. Just gotta be willing to swap when it rains or when it dries out. Edited March 26 by Rodger Coan-Burningham 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 Rain tires are a performance decision, not required. Yup I went there. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted March 27 Author Report Share Posted March 27 (edited) What if I have re71r but promise they will last 16 hours Edited March 27 by turbogrill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted March 27 Author Report Share Posted March 27 18 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: Not necessarily 200tw. That’s what I mean, you give up the ability to go fast in the dry to have a safe rain tire. My choice is the conti extr contact. Just gotta be willing to swap when it rains or when it dries out. That would be a 10min penalty to switch tires haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 18 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: a safe rain tire. Are you saying those of us who don’t switch tires are unsafe? Gotcha ! Rains are a STRATEGIC PERFORMANCE DECISION to purchase/run, far from a necessity, not something I was attempting to discourage with my ire of running soft rubber all day, but wouldn’t flinch if they got caught in the points for tire conversation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said: Are you saying those of us who don’t switch tires are unsafe? Gotcha ! Rains are a STRATEGIC PERFORMANCE DECISION to purchase/run, far from a necessity, not something I was attempting to discourage with my ire of running soft rubber all day, but wouldn’t flinch if they got caught in the points for tire conversation. Yes that is exactly what I am saying and yes that is a strategic decision to run them. In fact we no longer are allowed in Barber because we had teams sliding off track over and over two years in a row and damaged the facility to the point we were banned. Driving on rain tires not only prevented off track excursions but pushed the cars that drove on them to the front. Any chance of ever getting back there would probably require some type of special one off deal with us in specifying we would have a plan to require teams to use them in the event of rain like we saw those years. Not gonna happen, so we probably will never be back which is a shame. If by gotcha you are trying to say rain tires are not safer in the rain than non, then you have never driven on rain tires in a race. It's not even arguable. But yes, in the rain they are faster as well. When it dries out, not so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 Just now, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: a shame. If by gotcha you are trying to say rain tires are not safer in the rain than non, then you have never driven on rain tires in a race. It's not even arguable. But yes, in the rain they are faster as well. When it dries out, not so. Yes, we have driven on rain tires before, for advantage. I’m never going to buy into the argument for safety if speed comes with it. One could also say its safer to slow down in the rain. And yes, a shame we lost Barber, there should’ve been a lot more black flags. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 (edited) What does the competing series By the name of Fortuitous canines (but forum auto correct won’t let me say) do in the rain riding on mandated brick tires? (RS4) Edited March 27 by Team Infiniti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 12 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: I’m never going to buy into the argument for safety if speed comes with it. Yeah something that keeps you on track wouldn't qualify for safety. Gotcha back at you. It's a race, how could speed not come with it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 594 Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 18 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: What does the competing series By the name of Fortuitous canines (but forum auto correct won’t let me say) do in the rain riding on mandated brick tires? (RS4) In Lucky Dog everyone runs the RS4... rain, sun, or blizzard. I have a sicker 225 set ready for our Lucky Dog AMP race. If it rains used 195's might be our tire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said: What does the competing series By the name of Fortuitous canines (but forum auto correct won’t let me say) do in the rain riding on mandated brick tires? (RS4) I went from 46th to 5th in the rain during the first stint at Watkins Glen in a Cobalt on used RS4s. Mostly because I didn’t go off track like 90% of the cars that day. Nothing wrong with RS4s in the rain. Maybe not the all out pace of a better rain tire but it’s not a safety issue. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: Yeah something that keeps you on track wouldn't qualify for safety. Gotcha back at you. It's a race, how could speed not come with it? My point is : If you’re going faster than everybody else it’s an advantage, if done with tires it’s a purchased advantage that cost substantial Real world money but zero points. I have never been critical of those with rain tires, it’s been on my wish list & we’ve done it before. My sole complaint has been grippy tires that don’t last, Doubling or tripling ones race day expenditure to keep up. Some have pointed out you don’t need them to do well, yet here we have people spending thousands, is it a crutch or to crush, no matter, if it’s not real world advantage(as stated by a few )optics are the same, it hurts the little guy, ChampCars bread and butter. Mission statement mentions Cheep racing. Edited March 27 by Team Infiniti 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 33 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: My point is : If you’re going faster than everybody else it’s an advantage, if done with tires it’s a purchased advantage that cost substantial Real world money but zero points. I have never been critical of those with rain tires, it’s been on my wish list & we’ve done it before. My sole complaint has been grippy tires that don’t last, Doubling or tripling ones race day expenditure to keep up. Some have pointed out you don’t need them to do well, yet here we have people spending thousands, is it a crutch or to crush, no matter, if it’s not real world advantage(as stated by a few )optics are the same, it hurts the little guy, ChampCars bread and butter. Mission statement mentions Cheep racing. Yeah I hear you, but it's a one time expense. I have had the one set I own since 2019. They are gonna time out before they wear out. But I don't run them when it dries out because they lose the magic. Yes it is an advantage, but it's an advantage because you can drive through whatever conditions and never lose grip. Some places won't stand water to the point to become a huge issue and it's not going to rain hard and continuous in many races. We drove Watkins Glen in the rain and luckily it doesn't stand on that track but just a few places so there is less of the safety side of it at a place like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: Yeah I hear you, but it's a one time expense. I have had the one set I own since 2019. They are gonna time out before they wear out. But I don't run them when it dries out because they lose the magic. Yes it is an advantage, but it's an advantage because you can drive through whatever conditions and never lose grip. Some places won't stand water to the point to become a huge issue and it's not going to rain hard and continuous in many races. We drove Watkins Glen in the rain and luckily it doesn't stand on that track but just a few places so there is less of the safety side of it at a place like that. You’re missing what I’m saying, I don’t have a problem with rain tires, but wouldn’t mind if they got scooped into this conversation about points for tires. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 (edited) 8 hours ago, Team Infiniti said: What does the competing series By the name of Fortuitous canines (but forum auto correct won’t let me say) do in the rain riding on mandated brick tires? (RS4) In one of our local endurance races, during my 2 hour stint in the Civic with almost fully treaded R-S4s the heavens opened and I slowed down by about 10 seconds per lap during the downpour, driving around cars that were running RE-71Rs. They were about 6-8 seconds off their dry pace. Edited March 28 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 On 3/26/2023 at 3:20 PM, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: My choice is the conti extr contact. We used the earlier DWs at the Ridge during a downpour, they worked very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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