Points for tires

[petawawarace]

Seeing as Dana is supposed to send an email out asking for input on the proposed idea of charging points for some "fast" tires, why not start discussing it.

 

I see it as a good thing and a pretty good compromise to the extra speed some high wear tires gain.

 

1. Which tires should be points, and how much?  

2. Does it apply to all 4 tires?  For example if RE-71s are 50 points, is that for all 4 or even if I have 1 on?  Is running them on the front only 50pts or just 25pts?

3. Should there be an exception for 1 tire incase its installed after a flat?

4. Should it be spelled out that the points apply even if they are not used the whole race?

[Grufton]

In my opinion, if we’re going to apply points for tires, then the full assessment should apply if any point-value tire is used at any time during the race.  Seems like a nightmare to enforce.  Tech sheets are hard enough to get already, it won’t be obvious if the car next to me has claimed tires or not, though it would certainly be suspicious if they did a four tire change right before impound.  I’d rather ban the sticky tires all together.

[petawawarace]

1 minute ago, Grufton said:

In my opinion, if we’re going to apply points for tires, then the full assessment should apply if any point-value tire is used at any time during the race.  Seems like a nightmare to enforce.  Tech sheets are hard enough to get already, it won’t be obvious if the car next to me has claimed tires or not, though it would certainly be suspicious if they did a four tire change right before impound.  I’d rather ban the sticky tires all together.

 

I don't disagree, but the banning of tires has been brought up lots before and never gained traction (pardon the pun).  This would effectively solve the main issue and still allow teams to use those tires if they have the points. 

[Murray]

Agreed with everything above. I get the intent but this whole thing may be difficult to manage and enforce so I think if the series wanted to go this route we want to focus on rule and enforcement simplicity. 

So keeping it simple - If even a single high performance tire ever gets mounted to the car during a race then you pay the points, period. As for the total amount of points. I mean many people claim A052s / RE71-RS / CR-1 are something seconds faster for them a lap. That's a pretty significant difference. I would expect a pretty big number for them. 50 points? 75 points? 100 points?

 

... Or alternatively I still think the other proposal currently in the petitions is simpler to enforce and follows the intent. If any team does a tire change during a race (not because of a flat) they incur a 10 minute stop instead of 5.

Edit: Oh yea and if the series does this they need to give the members a BIG advanced notice and lots of communication about it. Many people buy tires and/or plan around tires pretty far in advanced. This is not something to attempt to roll out mid season.

Edited March 23 by Murray

[mindspin311]

Move on. Let's search for a more holistic way to improve the series.

 

Like the fact that FPV values are completely imbalanced based on performance gained.

[JDChristianson]

16 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Move on. Let's search for a more holistic way to improve the series.

 

Like the fact that FPV values are completely imbalanced based on performance gained.

What changes would you make?   

[Ronh911]

2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

What changes would you make?   

Increase aero points and decrease reliability points would be a great start. 

[JDChristianson]

9 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

Increase aero points and decrease reliability points would be a great start. 

I agree with that line of thought.   A wing, air dam and splitter could be   50 points ( including ones made from repurposed crap) and a full under tray another 25 points.  Then hubs could be free and oil, transmission, and diff coolers 5 points each.  If we made any sort of cylinder head porting 25 points we could make coolers free.  And an accusump 5 points. 
 

[mindspin311]

1 hour ago, Ronh911 said:

Increase aero points and decrease reliability points would be a great start. 

Maybe, and yes. I definitely agree on the reliability things.

 

I was thinking of bucketing FPV items into a few groups.

• Reliability
• Suspension
• Power - Small increase
• Power - Medium increase
• Power - Large increase

From there each bucket gets a default value. There will be winners and losers. But no more "why does an oil cooler and a throttle body cost me nearly the same?"

 

Please refrain from your torches and pitchforks as this is very back of the napkin.

[turbogrill]

The point is to drive down costs right? Not to make cars slow.

 

Wing $1000 - 10pts

Offset bushings $100 - 10pts

 

Doesn't make much sense to me.

[petawawarace]

37 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

The point is to drive down costs right? Not to make cars slow.

 

Wing $1000 - 10pts

Offset bushings $100 - 10pts

 

Doesn't make much sense to me.

It’s also to attempt to keep a level playing field and some parity between cars.  

[Team Infiniti]

3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

The point is to drive down costs right? Not to make cars slow.

 

Wing $1000 - 10pts

Offset bushings $100 - 10pts

 

Doesn't make much sense to me.

The faster we go the more money we spend?

[wvumtnbkr]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:21 PM, Grufton said:

In my opinion, if we’re going to apply points for tires, then the full assessment should apply if any point-value tire is used at any time during the race.  Seems like a nightmare to enforce.  Tech sheets are hard enough to get already, it won’t be obvious if the car next to me has claimed tires or not, though it would certainly be suspicious if they did a four tire change right before impound.  I’d rather ban the sticky tires all together.

Tech sheets are super easy to get.  At any race, at anytime, just ask a champcar official to get it for you.

[mender]

7 hours ago, turbogrill said:

The point is to drive down costs right? Not to make cars slow.

 

Wing $1000 - 10pts

Offset bushings $100 - 10pts

 

Doesn't make much sense to me.

In my case:

Wing from swap meet $35

Offset suspension points $0 (redrilled holes)

[Wittenauer Racing]

On 3/23/2023 at 4:04 PM, Murray said:

 

 

... Or alternatively I still think the other proposal currently in the petitions is simpler to enforce and follows the intent. If any team does a tire change during a race (not because of a flat) they incur a 10 minute stop instead of 5.

 

On this subject- how do rotations count? What if I'm putting on used tires? What if the race is more than 8hrs?

 

I forsee a lot of blown tires and balled up cars if we're trying to make people run 8+ hrs on the same front left at a number of tracks the series runs...

 

I've never really understood the hoopla about teams with $ spending it on tires. Is it a select few teams folks want to see reined in, or a larger issue?

 

A team with 2 or 3 cars, a semi or 2, and dedicated pit crews aren't going to stop doing well because they can't run A052's anymore. We do realize that right?

 

Sorry for the rant....

[ETR]

23 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Tech sheets are super easy to get.  At any race, at anytime, just ask a champcar official to get it for you.

 

Serious question- If I asked for the tech sheet of every competitor that weekend, would I get them?  Has anyone tried and how was it received?

[Team Infiniti]

11 hours ago, Wittenauer Racing said:

 

On this subject- how do rotations count? What if I'm putting on used tires? What if the race is more than 8hrs?

It’s been discussed before, Rotations do not count

[jakks]

4 hours ago, ETR said:

 

Serious question- If I asked for the tech sheet of every competitor that weekend, would I get them?  Has anyone tried and how was it received?

DBAD

 

IIRC there was a limit of 5 per person. Doing every single tech sheet is a lot of bandwidth, time and resources. 
 

I look at tech sheets after every race. I don’t see what you guys think you will gain to having full access to them. 
 

The option there is now is not being used but maybe once per race. I don’t see why it should change.

Edited March 26 by jakks

[ETR]

54 minutes ago, jakks said:

DBAD

 

IIRC there was a limit of 5 per person. Doing every single tech sheet is a lot of bandwidth, time and resources. 
 

I look at tech sheets after every race. I don’t see what you guys think you will gain to having full access to them. 
 

The option there is now is not being used but maybe once per race. I don’t see why it should change.

 

DBAD...classy.  Making a point.  There are limitations, as you say.  Also, whether a competitor would find my tech sheet interesting or not isn't really up to you.  

[Grufton]

20 hours ago, jakks said:

I look at tech sheets after every race. I don’t see what you guys think you will gain to having full access to them. 

 

Here's two examples:

 

Under prior leadership, GBU got allowances other teams didn't (the most egregious being the IRS swap).  This really only became known when their forms were posted to the forum.

 

Premium Dudes.  That issue probably would have been solved a lot sooner and more cleanly had there been more transparency around their swap.  Swaps are still a mess.  One of the cars I saw at NCM impound showed a VPI 50 points higher than base, but didn't actually indicate a swap anywhere on the form.

[jakks]

16 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

Here's two examples:

 

Under prior leadership, GBU got allowances other teams didn't (the most egregious being the IRS swap).  This really only became known when their forms were posted to the forum.

 

Premium Dudes.  That issue probably would have been solved a lot sooner and more cleanly had there been more transparency around their swap.  Swaps are still a mess.  One of the cars I saw at NCM impound showed a VPI 50 points higher than base, but didn't actually indicate a swap anywhere on the form.

 

GBU asked what IRS would cost in points. They were given a value. That value would have been the same for anyone else claiming it or asking about it. They weren't getting away with anything. They went back to C3 suspension after the BoD said "per piece" and then claimed less points and still went just as fast. Poke the bear, they just run at you faster.

Premium Dudes: Swap sheet isn't shown on the tech sheet. That's why Chris thinks resources should be spent on getting swap sheets fixed and not spending resources on something you guys already have access to. I agree. 

 

NCM: Did you bring up the issue to Thomas in impound? Did you ask the team? Until we have drop downs and training on specifically how tech sheets were to be filled out, there may be some teams that do them slightly different. That car's swap was accounted for in their TVPi. Not sure why it matters. I will look into having him fix it for Daytona though.

 

Take Miata's for example, please tell me how people are going to find differences in two exact same claimed item'ed cars. One ends up being 4 seconds a lap faster. Same with Boxsters who all seem to be claiming the same points for items, but they are 4 seconds different and you know it's not all driver. Could be car prep? Could be spring setup?  Could be tires? Could be how much weight the take out?

 

Tech sheets aren't going to show you what you all should be looking at in impound. Too many people standing around drinking beers/bourbon and enjoying themselves to care about what tech sheets show.

[55mini]

39 minutes ago, Grufton said:

VPI 50 points higher than base

So was that a Miata of early gen with a platform swap? On NA miata early ones move to 300 when you make a swap so just trying to understand your point.

[jakks]

2 minutes ago, 55mini said:

So was that a Miata of early gen with a platform swap? On NA miata early ones move to 300 when you make a swap so just trying to understand your point.

No. It was the NC Miata.

 

[turbogrill]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:31 AM, Team Infiniti said:

The faster we go the more money we spend?

Old Datsun = Money pit and slow
NC Miata = Cheap and fast

[Grufton]

38 minutes ago, jakks said:

 

GBU asked what IRS would cost in points. They were given a value. That value would have been the same for anyone else claiming it or asking about it. They weren't getting away with anything...

 

Premium Dudes: Swap sheet isn't shown on the tech sheet. That's why Chris thinks resources should be spent on getting swap sheets fixed and not spending resources on something you guys already have access to. I agree. 

 

Perhaps my memory is off, but I remember a tech desk question where someone asked for a value for an IRS swap on a Mustang, and was told per-part values apply.  I thought that was prior to the GBU/IRS controversy , but I could be wrong.  That tech desk article seems to have been deleted, so I can't verify now.

 

In my view swap sheets and tech forms should be the same thing, the Premium Dudes fiasco just reinforces that.  I did not mean to imply the NCM NC was in any way skirting the rules, just that the tech form was useless to verify the correct point assessment.  I assumed it was a swap of some kind, and Ray confirmed when I asked - but I never followed up further to figure out what it was.

Edited March 27 by Grufton