Rubbin'

[Izzys Cages]

Remember kids...... "Rub'bins Racin'"

Sorry. Rubbing may be racing in some organizations, but IT SHOULDN'T BE here.

THIS is endurance racing.

The only thing to gain from bouncing off of your competitors is a bad reputation for your team. This is not a sprint race. If you cannot make a freaking pass CLEANLY, then wait until you can. If you're having a hard time getting by someone, sit back, relax and LEARN why they are giving you a run for your money. Figure out where you have the advantage, and where they have the advantage. LEARN RACECRAFT!!! Incidental contact? Sure. It happens, but bouncing off of someone because you ran out of talent is not road racing. You want to do that, go race LeMons or bombers/hornets.

I'm sure others will have variations, but it's a simple "rule*" If your bumpers not at their door, ITS THEIR FREAKING CORNER. Back off and try again next time. You have plenty of time to get it right. On the flip side, if their bumper is at your door, you don't get to turn in on them. They've beat you. It's their corner. Get over it. Back off and figure out where they have the advantage and where you have the advantage. LEARN RACECRAFT!

And possibly even more important, if you punt someone, give someone a mark or crumple their fender, you man the F up and walk over there and discuss it with them. Conversely, if you have an AWESOME 10-20-200 lap race with someone, walk over and talk to the team/driver. You'll have a friend for life

*No, it's not in the rulebook. Don't ask John to clarify.

[mikee5901]

Well said Scott I think we ran into a bit of a saturday night circle track mentality at Nelson this weekend I have never experienced anything like it in my entire road racing career .. which is quite extensive and includes eight chumpcar races . It could have been just a fluke due to in experienced drivers with no clue as to what a driving line is supposed to be or what the unwritten rules of racing are. I did notice that most of the offending cars had pretty much taken themselves out by crashing or tearing their cars up to the point of being undrivable. one thing is for certain, they certainly were not all the caliber drivers that we have grown use to in the chumpcar series.

[Guest jhd11]

I, also, have been disappointed by the reports from Nelson of all the metal to metal contact. I come from a SCCA background where contact is frowned upon. Now before the flames start, I understand that some contact is going to happen when you have so many vehicles on course for so long a time but in my 5 ChumpCar races (Roebling, Sebring X2, Rockingham and VIR) I have had contact one time! Even then, it was very minimal. I am not even sure the car that I rubbed knew he had been touched! This is real racing and stuff is going to happen but being in over your head or being in a position and not knowing you are over your head can have some bad consequences, for the drivers, machines and the series. Besides, TR6 fenders are expensive!

Joe Downer

RiffRAF Racing TR6

Charlotte, N.C.

[Guest Taylorcraftbc65]

Izzy's right. If you are running the dirt in East Tennessee, or somewhere similar, well that's just the way its done, and when in Rome. But even THERE, when I had gained enough experience to where I was running a Sportsman, while we were "rubbing" each other OCCASIONALLY, we were NOT banging into each other.

When I moved to Germany, and started racing Formula Vee's, now THAT was an education. You trade paint THERE, and you BOTH lost major suspension parts.

What I'm saying is this, I am fast, but I'm not the greatest racer on the planet, and if I could make the transition from an outlaw late model sportsman to a Formula Vee, you guys should be able to run a pretty clean race when you have 25 hours to make your moves.

If I am ever lucky enough to get on the same Chumpcar grid with "Smoke", I am going to do my best to stay close to his tail and LEARN something, NOT try to "T Bone" him.

Brie

[porkchops22]

Scott, thanks for saying what I failed to be able to verbalize. I am still re-cooperating from this weekend. Well said my friend. Just one note from my on track experience. I found many places on track were it seemed drivers were running with a "F-you" approach and simply forgot that it was their responsibility to make the clean/safe pass. In times where I couldn;t do that I backed off and waited.

There is actually a good article in Novembers issue of GRM written by Randy Probst. He talks about the top 10 keys to being successful in a race car. #1 on the list is patience, picking out an area on the track to safely overtake your competitor. I encountered many drivers that need to read that article.

[brawls43]

Nice post, I think the Chumpionship had a high rate of contact as well. At least compared to the other 5 Chump races we had done.

[l337h4l]

One of our drivers saw another team bumper tap and pit maneuver another car on OPEN TRACK NIGHT PRACTICE!..... During Practice.... um again... practice???

[Guest jumped the shark]

Perfectly said.

I also agree with the practice comment, i got off the track early due to the race environment.

There were cars out there pressuring me like crazy. I ended up passing said cars over and over during the race, not sure what they were trying to prove out there during practice.

[Guest Tim_]

On the flip side, if their bumper is at your door, you don't get to turn in on them. They've beat you. It's their corner. Get over it. Back off and figure out where they have the advantage and where you have the advantage. LEARN RACECRAFT!

This was the problem I was having w/the #51 Mellow Yellow car. I had to back out multiple times when I had the inside line b/c they would come down and try to "close the door" in the middle of the corner. Maybe not all of their drivers were like that - just whoever was in around noon.

We were in the green #52 Eclipse with the big green turtle on the roof. Other than the #51, most of the other drivers I encountered were pretty fair about leaving room. I recall having some good laps with the Imprezas and the yellow and white Merkur.

[Bill Strong]

I want to copy my post over from another thread since it is on this "rubbin'" subject...

wow.

bad weekend for us.

ModSquad2 MR2 had cooling issues. would overheat on the hour. but we finished the event and took the checkered flag with the newest car to our stable of MR2s.

Along the way, one of our drivers slowed off the course and stopped to rejoin traffic when an unknown car slammed into the back of our white MR2 and a fairly high rate of speed. Thanks for stopping by our pit to make certain our guy was okay.

Oh wait. You did not do this.

ModSquad 1 was used as a berm to keep others from either going off the track, or coming back onto the track after high speed off-road excursions.

A certain Mercedes was one to do this to me while I was driving around 115am. I swear his car came across my hood. But he destroyed my custom 'Charlotte" front end. Never even came by to say hey, sorry, or hey, you got in my way.

I saw a lot of that this weekend.

Jeff G 78, it was nice meeting you after he race, and like I said, your drivers were the absolute best out there. We would come up behind you, wait, and your driver would point where he wanted us to go. and we would. I saw others that would go the other way than what you pointed. Crazy. People want to die...

David Hawkins and I spend a lot of time and money to provide the opportunity for 10 drivers to race on world class tracks in ChumpCar. We understand the risk of racing, both financially and with equipment damage. but we also know that this series is not one that is a win at all cost.

My hats off to Mike and his team. Having participated in a bunch of South and Mid-Atlantic Chump Races that went on with little incident, I know you must have been caught off guard by all the roll overs and the tire wall incidents. The passing under yellow was insane. Even after the last race stoppage to explain that donkey-hat driving needs to stop, and that passing under yellow was dumbassness at best. The RED Mist was everywhere.

We will rebuild the MR2s. We are even rebuilding the 2010 Sebring MK1 MR2 for use in 2012, so we will have three cars.

Been a long eventful weekend... time for sleep.

[944fest]

Wow. Insane, really. I'm Dan P, and my Team Cuz was in the green VW Corrado. We had a few old DE veterans, and a couple of new to track guys. We had an amazing time our first time out, ran a best 1:27, and finished 17th with just minor breakdowns. So many crazy things, I agree with most all points from "why did we do this" to understanding what post traumatic stress syndrome feels like. (Huge thanks to everyone involved for starters)

Anyway, it was way more violent than we expected, but we survived and don't want to be the whining new guys. We expected an 'endurance race' and got a taste of jungle rules. The AM race stopping meeting was somewhat refreshing as we learned that it was not supposed to be like that. I heard from the race officials they had numerous complaints about the winning BMW passing under yellow, but he still gets the win and keeps running. Huh? Both the 2nd and third place cars had my cars paint on them, and my rookie drivers got punted by them. I told the rookies to pick a line (inside or outside) and keep it when there are cars behind you. Go as fast as you can on that line, but do not close the door on anyone. I'd friggin black flag the red saab for purposely going up the middle for a 3 wide pass in Oak Tree. Yea, I had my left tires pinned to the inside to make room for the guy outside me, not for TWO of you! (Wow that was crazy!)

To the winning red BMW, ya know, you built an amazing car and ran it fast for 25 hrs, that probably took a lot of brains. Why is so hard to understand at night, one yellow means the full course is yellow? One of your midnight drivers seemed to run like if they could not see a lit yellow, they were hammer down. The second place BMW did it too. The Mellow Yellow car was horrible about blocking all over. I hate to be a complainer but from my perspective, they could have solved the problem by seriously punishing about 5 or 6 cars, or maybe just kick them out. You'd hate to ruin it for the whole team, maybe just bench the offending driver. To race officials, next time, don't just shout. Put some serious sting into repeat offenders. Heck, maybe you did and we didn’t know about it.

I know my newbie drivers probably could not see you guys coming up many times and closed the door on you. I try to remember each team has at least 4 drivers, likely more and therefore the car you were running with for a long period having fun one session may well up and punt you 20 minutes later.

Enough whining, really. I went and congratulated all the winners, thanked the organizers, and spent tons of cash with the sponsors and supporters. I held my line, tried to give everyone room, and made many wave bys to assist the flow. We met a lot of other teams, shared parts, tools, stories and tips. We had an unbelievable weekend that our friends and family are certainly already tired of hearing us talk about. We'll lick the wounds and learn from our errors. We need to master scheduling, communications, look hard at suspension issues and figure a way to know where cars are around you at night. (infrared rear view or auto dimming camera system? radar?)

After this, I don't know if I can go back to doing DE's. For 30 years of driving it was taboo for two cars to touch anywhere. I saw more cars hit in that 25 hours than in my whole life! Did anyone get hurt, or did we go that 25 hrs injury free? If so, that would indeed be amazing. I was thankful for every penny we spent on safety.

Anyway, too long of a post, hope I didn't bore ya.

I heard that one of the safety trucks turned so many laps he unofficially came in 43rd but did not have a transponder on board.

HUGE THANKS TO ALL OF MY WELL BEHAVED competitors! That was amazing and insane!

Dan P

Cleveland, Ohio

[krek]

Well said Scott, I'm proud to call you a mentor (and a friend).

[lonestarrpm]

We've been hit hard in two consecutive races.

Amazingly nothing more serious than body damage has occurred.

We got T-Boned in the drivers door hard enough to make our deaf driver hear it at TWS 5 hours into 18 during daylight :-)

The door still open/closed and latched -- so we soldiered on.

At Harris Hill we lost an entire drivers side front fender. This one you have to see to appreciate.

It was turn 5 left hander -- a car hit us just in front of the drivers door -- went up and over the wheel

and dented the front of the fender as well. Pushed it in 6 inches at least.

We suffered no handling issues what so ever. In fact other than a slight slit in the tread of the tire -- it appears

to have missed the wheel completely.

In this case the driver came by later and apologized, he totally over drove the corner and punted us.

I'd post a pic -- but we've got a 500K global upload quota? WTF?

We have a few door panel wheel rubs from this last race as well. In that case -- that's fine -- but two hard in corner hits is tough going.

Mike

[csadn]

If you cannot make a freaking pass CLEANLY, then wait until you can. If you're having a hard time getting by someone, sit back, relax and LEARN why they are giving you a run for your money. Figure out where you have the advantage, and where they have the advantage. LEARN RACECRAFT!!! Incidental contact? Sure. It happens, but bouncing off of someone because you ran out of talent is not road racing. You want to do that, go race LeMons or bombers/hornets.

I'm sure others will have variations, but it's a simple "rule*" If your bumpers not at their door, ITS THEIR FREAKING CORNER. Back off and try again next time. You have plenty of time to get it right. On the flip side, if their bumper is at your door, you don't get to turn in on them. They've beat you. It's their corner. Get over it. Back off and figure out where they have the advantage and where you have the advantage. LEARN RACECRAFT!

Copied, pasted, and sent to IndyCar and Formula One -- where d'you think people learn this kind of rubbish?

[Izzys Cages]

Guys, lets not turn this into call out fest. Lets use it constructively.

Just my opinion but I think it's on the "veteren" drivers, and veteran members of the teams to make sure that our teams are doing it right and passing it on to the other teams.

When I first started CHUMP racing I was very impressed by the fact that over the course of the first 12 hours of a race you could tell who was clueless and who got it. You knew which cars you could race with and which cars to set up and pass cleanly when the opportunity came. By the 23rd hour people had mostly figured out through others examples how to point people by, where to hold their line and generally figured out how to pass and be passed.

The beauty of CHUMP is that anyone can get out there and do this stuff. You DON'T need the dogma of the 2 schools and 4 races blah blah blah BS that other org's make you do. It can be done but it's up to the guys with the experience and the team captains to make sure that people are racing clean and that they are paying attention to the rules.

Unfortunately, the "cleanup" needs to start now. As the series continues to grow, it's only going to get worse if WE don't do something soon. IMO, It's not up to CHUMP. It's up to us Chumps.

[Guest NSFW]

Hellowine 2010 was hell on our car... before and after pics here:

/>http://forum.chumpcar.com/index.php?/topic/1632-team-pony-express-survives-hellowine-2010/page__hl__hellowine__fromsearch__1

And the other side is just as bad, maybe worse. There's a fair amount of pink paint you can't see, that we didn't apply ourselves.

(The missing headlights aren't crash damage though - we pulled those out between races.)

Having never raced in any series before, and heard "rubbin is racin" before, I figured it was normal. We got t-boned hard once or twice, and we t-boned another car hard enough to do some damage. And we also went to that team's pit when their car came in, with a generator and a welder and lot of apologizing.

Six months later, April 2011, hardly any contact at all. Maybe it was due to less rain, no driving at night (double-7 versus 12+6), or maybe most of us had simply learned from October's race. The difference really surprised me, and it also showed me that there's a big difference between rubbin and pounding.

I'm in favor of applying the black flag for hard hits. I realize the corner marshals can't be everywhere at once, though.

[gburner]

I try and treat every car/driver out there like it is their first time EVER road racing...Even with that in mind I have had contact with another car ( team cavette I believe) that was hard enough to knock our bumper off, and yes I went over to the team to apologise for the incident they were way cool about it( it still didn't make me feel any better about it)..

[daily driver]

Hellowine 2010 was hell on our car... before and after pics here:

/>http://forum.chumpcar.com/index.php?/topic/1632-team-pony-express-survives-hellowine-2010/page__hl__hellowine__fromsearch__1

And the other side is just as bad, maybe worse. There's a fair amount of pink paint you can't see, that we didn't apply ourselves.

(The missing headlights aren't crash damage though - we pulled those out between races.)

Having never raced in any series before, and heard "rubbin is racin" before, I figured it was normal. We got t-boned hard once or twice, and we t-boned another car hard enough to do some damage. And we also went to that team's pit when their car came in, with a generator and a welder and lot of apologizing.

Six months later, April 2011, hardly any contact at all. Maybe it was due to less rain, no driving at night (double-7 versus 12+6), or maybe most of us had simply learned from October's race. The difference really surprised me, and it also showed me that there's a big difference between rubbin and pounding.

I'm in favor of applying the black flag for hard hits. I realize the corner marshals can't be everywhere at once, though.

I agree. I was building my car during the Hellowine event but was on another team and their car got 'rubbed' good. Almost scared me off. April was my first event and not a scratch. Spokane my car got some good 'rubbin' but it was mostly at night. I will be taking the checkered in a few weeks at the PIR race to protect my car in the dark. I have yet to make any contact in 4 races...I have a bad feeling about 75+ cars in Portland though.

[HoyaXC07]

If you aint first... you're last. -Rick Bobby

Our BMW has had it fair share of bumps and bruises this season but all were simply racing incidents with no real damage. I had a miata bumpdraft me down the front straight of Roebling and Justin actually signed the fender of the Impreza he tagged at Iowa.

Rubbin' is racin' but leave the Gran Turismo bumper car driving on the TV.

[Sir Thomas Crapper]

I completely disagree with whoever it was saying not to point fingers. If someone punts you, repeatedly rubs you, runs you off track, then hell yes, name names. maybe the organizers will see team names, and warn corner workers ahead of time to keep an eye on team a, b, or c. The corner workers then report these teams, since the magnifying glass is on them, team sits for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, and may eventually get tossed.

lesson learned...

[dsycks]

5 min

30 min

60 min

Trailer...

I like it.

[scott367]

I ran the army green Fickle complain ZX2. My 68 year old father was hit in the rear twice in the first 45 min. The last hit took us out for two hours with a bent rear strut. I found a video of the clown that hit him. Black Fiero number 82 came into turn one way too hot.

/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUNKH2Tixa4

[Izzys Cages]

Sir Thomas... Call them out all you want, on some other thread. This thread was meant to be constructive and to start a dialogue to help address growing pain issues that the series has ahead of it.

[firehawk]

Intentional hitting to make way around a slower car in unacceptable, and one car was doing that at h2r. Getting door doughnuts from close racing is just fun. A bit of blocking is just part of racecraft. Some drivers will over drive, find they have less brakes than normal, miss a breaking point, etc; that is just racing.

All in all, chumpcar is the best racing I have ever done.

[Sir Thomas Crapper]

Sir Thomas... Call them out all you want, on some other thread. This thread was meant to be constructive and to start a dialogue to help address growing pain issues that the series has ahead of it.

OK Izzy, It's your post, so I'll relent on this demand.

One other point I'd like to make, is that some people don't even know they drive like assh@les. You may be doing them a favor by letting them know....