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What if they crash my car?!


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Hello all,

 

I just joined the forum as a couple of buddies and I are in phase of considering trying our hands at racing with you guys, as well as doing some racing in the Lucky Dog Racing League. We have had a lot of internal discussions trying to hash out all of the logistics behind who pays what, how much etc etc. The big question right now (as I may end up being the car owner and team lead) is -

 

What if they crash my car?????

 

Now I have read the write up in this section about how to join the series and what to expect but it didn't seem to address this subject specifically. So car owners out there, how do you assign responsibility for an accident occurring with your beloved racecar? Do you make a contract for your drivers? What is the general consensus for this situation? If the car is totaled is it fully the drivers responsibility for damages? 50/50 with owner? Do you set up a fund ahead of time that all drivers pay into for that exact possibility? I am open to any and all ideas when it comes to this subject. Obviously its a touchy one, that none of us want to deal with, but as we all know, the chance of it happening will always be there.

 

I also want to note that I do understand the circumstances of a crash would also have to be considered prior to a decision being made as to who pays what for the car etc. Obviously if Joe Schmoe in car blah blah pile drives you because he didn't know what he was doing, its a different story than if your driver does the same to someone else. (this being an extreme example I am sure).

 

Look forward to hearing inputs on this topic. Thanks!

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Thank you for attaching your rental agreement. That seems to be a really simple way to cover yourself in the event of an incident. And is relatively 'cut and dry'. The only part I didn't see outlined in your agreement is how damages that do not total the car are resolved financially. Also curious how that sort of thing is dealt with. Then there is the other side of the equation which is, how do damages caused by another racer on the track get dealt with? Do you coordinate that with the other team?

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All of our drivers read and understand that they are responsible for any damage sustained while they're in the car. No signature required. This would include being T-boned by another team.

 

We don't usually collect a deposit, because we know our drivers getting in. When we do collect a deposit from a new renter, it's in the form of a check on race day. When they get out of the car we rip up the check.

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Just now, ba#97 said:
12 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

All of our drivers read and understand that they are responsible for any damage sustained while they're in the car. No signature required. This would include being T-boned by another team.

 

We don't usually collect a deposit, because we know our drivers getting in. When we do collect a deposit from a new renter, it's in the form of a check on race day. When they get out of the car we rip up the check.

 

So let me ask this then, how much roughly do you request for this deposit? Is that deposit solely for the chance of a crash?

 

This subject is mainly aimed towards the instance of a crash, but I also am curious about how much everyone charges for a seat in their car, not including obvious race/membership fees. Any advice on that would also be appreciated.

 

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31 minutes ago, nissanguy38501 said:

Normally I have everyone sign an agreement spelling out the dangers involved and who pays for what. Nobody gets in the car until the agreement is signed. 

 

2017 Release And Rental Agreement.rtf

 

Thanks for sharing this, as it's a good point for discussion. I think your particular written agreement has some gaping holes in it, and could open yourself to more liability than the sort of open ended understanding we use.

 

Under your Agreement, for example:

  • You might still be liable in the case of an injury in the pits.
  • If the car isn't "deemed un-repairable", there is no cost assumed by the renter. (And everything is repairable). If they drive straight off track and ruin one corner, they don't pay under your agreement.
  • You may be creating an expectation for injury compensation to competitors where there wasn't one already.

These sorts of liability waivers have traditionally been seen as unenforceable.

Edited by takjak2
grammar
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1 minute ago, ba#97 said:

So let me ask this then, how much roughly do you request for this deposit? Is that deposit solely for the chance of a crash?

 

This subject is mainly aimed towards the instance of a crash, but I also am curious about how much everyone charges for a seat in their car, not including obvious race/membership fees. Any advice on that would also be appreciated

 

When we ask for a deposit it is 1/2 again their rental fee. We find it difficult to do more damage than that to our Miata. A serious corner hit on our car might be less than $200 or $300. Your results may vary.

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Just now, takjak2 said:

 

When we ask for a deposit it is 1/2 again their rental fee. We find it difficult to do more damage than that to our Miata. A serious corner hit on our car might be less than $200 or $300. Your results may vary.

 

What do you charge for your rental fee if you don't mind me asking? Just trying to get the best idea of what to charge for everything when the time comes. We will more than likely be running either an SN95 or Fox Mustang, 3-series BMW or my buddies well-prepped Miata if that has any consolation for costs.

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As you can see, there are MANY ways to go about it. 

 

Personally, my team is composed of my dad and a couple of good friends that I trust to do the right thing.  We have the agreement that if you do something dumb and wreck the car, then you pay to fix it or get a new car going.  If it is a racing incident then we will figure out later how to get the car back going again.  Its not in writing, but my view is that the friends are worth more than the $3000-5000 that the car is worth and if they don't stand up to the agreement, well then I'm fine to see them walk away. We had a driver crash the car from driver error last year.  He paid his way to get a new car built and get a cage done.  I am happy with the outcome.

 

One piece of advice I would give is to make sure everyone knows how much it all costs.  Keep a bit of a running total as all the little things add up pretty quick.  That way there wont be a big sticker shock if someone does have to pay for a new build. 

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2 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

As you can see, there are MANY ways to go about it. 

 

Personally, my team is composed of my dad and a couple of good friends that I trust to do the right thing.  We have the agreement that if you do something dumb and wreck the car, then you pay to fix it or get a new car going.  If it is a racing incident then we will figure out later how to get the car back going again.  Its not in writing, but my view is that the friends are worth more than the $3000-5000 that the car is worth and if they don't stand up to the agreement, well then I'm fine to see them walk away. We had a driver crash the car from driver error last year.  He paid his way to get a new car built and get a cage done.  I am happy with the outcome.

 

One piece of advice I would give is to make sure everyone knows how much it all costs.  Keep a bit of a running total as all the little things add up pretty quick.  That way there wont be a big sticker shock if someone does have to pay for a new build. 

 

It is starting to seem like this is the best option for driving with those you know and trust. and I'm sure my buddies would be on board with this. That being said, there is no guarantee that someone will keep their word sadly.

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8 minutes ago, ba#97 said:

 

It is starting to seem like this is the best option for driving with those you know and trust. and I'm sure my buddies would be on board with this. That being said, there is no guarantee that someone will keep their word sadly.

Yep, sadly not.  But... if they are willing to do that, then I don't need them.  So that brings me some comfort!

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13 minutes ago, ba#97 said:

What do you charge for your rental fee if you don't mind me asking? Just trying to get the best idea of what to charge for everything when the time comes. We will more than likely be running either an SN95 or Fox Mustang, 3-series BMW or my buddies well-prepped Miata if that has any consolation for costs.

 

Our rental costs vary with the race format as they are calculated from actual hourly maintenance and repair expectations. A seat with 2 stints in the upcoming 12 hour race at VIR will be $1200 for each of 3 drivers. I won't be collecting a deposit from any of those drivers. I don't think you could run a BMW for less than that.

 

Fuel, tires, brakes, hubs, cam position sensor, bushings, shocks, clutch, transmission, engine rebuild... I'll tell you that it's about $135 per hour to simply have the Miata turning laps.

Consider the hauling costs, the fuel cans, radios, pit tent. Snacks, drinks, ice. Crew pit pass. Registration.

We aren't trying to recoup the entire construction cost, just what it takes to go racing.

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4 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

 

Our rental costs vary with the race format as they are calculated from actual hourly maintenance and repair expectations. A seat with 2 stints in the upcoming 12 hour race at VIR will be $1200 for each of 3 drivers. I won't be collecting a deposit from any of those drivers. I don't think you could run a BMW for less than that.

 

Fuel, tires, brakes, hubs, cam position sensor, bushings, shocks, clutch, transmission, engine rebuild... I'll tell you that it's about $135 per hour to simply have the Miata turning laps.

Consider the hauling costs, the fuel cans, radios, pit tent. Snacks, drinks, ice. Crew pit pass. Registration.

We aren't trying to recoup the entire construction cost, just what it takes to go racing.

 

First off, let me say that YES, there may be some "gaping" holes in my agreement, but I think it pretty much spells out what we expect of the drivers who rent from me and what THEY can expect if they just completely pork the pooch on race day.

 

Your cost assessment from above is, from my point of view, pretty much dead on. What a lot of people fail to realize is that it's not just what you spend on a race weekend, it's all the spares, travel expenses and the like that are included in the cost of running the car...

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28 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

 

Our rental costs vary with the race format as they are calculated from actual hourly maintenance and repair expectations. A seat with 2 stints in the upcoming 12 hour race at VIR will be $1200 for each of 3 drivers. I won't be collecting a deposit from any of those drivers. I don't think you could run a BMW for less than that.

 

Fuel, tires, brakes, hubs, cam position sensor, bushings, shocks, clutch, transmission, engine rebuild... I'll tell you that it's about $135 per hour to simply have the Miata turning laps.

Consider the hauling costs, the fuel cans, radios, pit tent. Snacks, drinks, ice. Crew pit pass. Registration.

We aren't trying to recoup the entire construction cost, just what it takes to go racing.

 

So just to be clear, these #'s are also adding in registration fees? would that $1200 # be less per driver if there was another driver? what do you as an owner do with the money you collect? I'm assuming it goes right back into the car, as you said paying for consumables, and maintenance after races etc. Then the deposit you require of your non-regular renters is an additional half of the rental fee which is given back to the renter after a successful race weekend without damages? 

Edited by ba#97
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1 minute ago, ba#97 said:

 

So just to be clear, these #'s are also adding in registration fees? would that $1200 # be less per driver if there was another driver? what do you as an owner do with the money you collect? I'm assuming it goes right back into the car, as you said paying for consumables, and maintenance after races etc. Then the deposit you require of your non-regular renters is an additional half of the rental fee which is given back to the renter after a successful race weekend with damages? 

 

Not speaking for @takjak2, but let's look at some numbers. In most cases...

 

Entry Fee: $1200

Fuel - Race Car: $300-400

Tires: Two sets @ $160 each = $1280

Hotel rooms for the weekend: @ 500

Tow Fuel: $200 - $300 (Or more) Depending on how far you have to drive

Food: @ $300

Spares: At least $1000, plus anything you have to replace that (God forbid) breaks on the car during the race.

Not to mention tools, jacks, stands, boxes full of little crap, consumables, etc.

 

Soooooooo.... just for a typical race weekend, you're looking at about $4000 in costs. As you can see, the rental monies you get from your rental drivers may - or may not - cover all your costs. Racing, as any of us that have done this for a while will tell you, is a money pit. But - it's better than a boat, because everyone knows that boat stands for:

 

(B)reak

(O)ut

(A)nother

(T)housand

 

:P

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Our car was built and is maintained by 5 buddies. So far it has gone very smoothly with input of the build and investment from all. We have only done a couple of races and with no incidents so far I cannot comment on crashes. My hope will be that if it's our driver error then that drive will step up and cover more than their share, time will tell. If its contact from another team then I feel its up to them to decide if they are going to take responsibility or not. This is racing and things happen.

 

As far as cost for each race. I have put together a spreadsheet that the entry fee , tires, fuel, transportation,  and service for the car totals into. I then divide this by the number of drivers and that is what we pay. I do charge all drivers including myself a $100.00 fee pre race that is put into a account to help cover cost of major repairs down the road, so far no one has had a problem with this. Hope to see you on the track.

 

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8 minutes ago, nissanguy38501 said:

 

Not speaking for @takjak2, but let's look at some numbers. In most cases...

 

Entry Fee: $1200

Fuel - Race Car: $300-400

Tires: Two sets @ $160 each = $1280

Hotel rooms for the weekend: @ 500

Tow Fuel: $200 - $300 (Or more) Depending on how far you have to drive

Food: @ $300

Spares: At least $1000, plus anything you have to replace that (God forbid) breaks on the car during the race.

Not to mention tools, jacks, stands, boxes full of little crap, consumables, etc.

 

Soooooooo.... just for a typical race weekend, you're looking at about $4000 in costs. As you can see, the rental monies you get from your rental drivers may - or may not - cover all your costs. Racing, as any of us that have done this for a while will tell you, is a money pit. But - it's better than a boat, because everyone knows that boat stands for:

 

(B)reak

(O)ut

(A)nother

(T)housand

 

:P

 

well luckily, I am more than willing to rough it over a race weekend for the sake of cost savings, I would hope that once you have your spares that you (knock one wood) don't have to use them often, so that to me wouldn't be a cost that comes up per race (hopefully). but I can see where the #s all come from and have a rough idea of what it would cost to run such an event. obviously this is also based off of the type of car too. running a miata is going to be cheaper than running a mustang so on and so forth. 

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so back to the original subject though, are there any other agreements that others may have made when it comes to the instance of crashing the car? I am happy to have had some solid answers so far, but if anyone else has a different idea or experience that works, I would love to hear more ideas. 

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1 hour ago, takjak2 said:

 

 

We aren't trying to recoup the entire construction cost, just what it takes to go racing.

 

Why? Our car cost $10k to build (yeah I know we suck). Someone needs to pay for that, that is me and the rest of the team and guest drivers.

 

I figure this little adventure is going to last 3 years and we try to do 3 races a year.

After that this car is worth maybe $2000.

 

So $8k / 9 = ~$800 per race needs to be included as cost of building the car.  (ends up being about $50-$70 per hour or so)

 

Disagree?

Edited by turbogrill
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21 minutes ago, Pmfracing said:

Our car was built and is maintained by 5 buddies. So far it has gone very smoothly with input of the build and investment from all. We have only done a couple of races and with no incidents so far I cannot comment on crashes. My hope will be that if it's our driver error then that drive will step up and cover more than their share, time will tell. If its contact from another team then I feel its up to them to decide if they are going to take responsibility or not. This is racing and things happen.

 

As far as cost for each race. I have put together a spreadsheet that the entry fee , tires, fuel, transportation,  and service for the car totals into. I then divide this by the number of drivers and that is what we pay. I do charge all drivers including myself a $100.00 fee pre race that is put into a account to help cover cost of major repairs down the road, so far no one has had a problem with this. Hope to see you on the track.

 

 

This is actually much more along the lines of my thought process honestly. I would love to see one of your spreadsheets just to see how it all divies out for a race roughly if you didn't mind. thanks for your input. 

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5 hours ago, ba#97 said:

Hello all,

 

I just joined the forum as a couple of buddies and I are in phase of considering trying our hands at racing with you guys, as well as doing some racing in the Lucky Dog Racing League. We have had a lot of internal discussions trying to hash out all of the logistics behind who pays what, how much etc etc. The big question right now (as I may end up being the car owner and team lead) is -

 

When they crash my car?????  What do I do ?

 

Now I have read the write up in this section about how to join the series and what to expect but it didn't seem to address this subject specifically. So car owners out there, how do you assign responsibility for an accident occurring with your beloved racecar? Do you make a contract for your drivers? What is the general consensus for this situation? If the car is totaled is it fully the drivers responsibility for damages? 50/50 with owner? Do you set up a fund ahead of time that all drivers pay into for that exact possibility? I am open to any and all ideas when it comes to this subject. Obviously its a touchy one, that none of us want to deal with, but as we all know, the chance of it happening will always be there.

 

I also want to note that I do understand the circumstances of a crash would also have to be considered prior to a decision being made as to who pays what for the car etc. Obviously if Joe Schmoe in car blah blah pile drives you because he didn't know what he was doing, its a different story than if your driver does the same to someone else. (this being an extreme example I am sure).

 

Look forward to hearing inputs on this topic. Thanks!

 

FIFY       And welcome to the madness !

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On my team everything is shared, from the build, to the racing, to the repairs, sort of like no fault insurance.

 

Driver A is out and the trans blows up, we all pay 1/4 to repair it as we have all used it.  Driver B can't make a race but the engine blows up, we all pay 1/4 to repair it as we have all used it.  Driver C can't make a race, he doesn't pay any of the race entry, fuel, or consumables like brakes for the race, but if something blows up he will pay 1/4 of the cost.  Everybody is aware of it, sort of like go out there and race, if something happens you only pay 1/4 of the cost so go hard, but keep in mind that if you are causing extra repairs all the time the rest of the team will not accept that for very long.

 

It works well for our team.  We do our best to attend all of the work sessions on the car.  I am the team captain, I do all of the race entries, whoever purchases something hands me the receipt and I enter it into the spreadsheet to divvy the cost.

 

We keep the car at one team member's shop, someone else has an enclosed trailer, another has the truck to pull it, I guide the build of the car.  I will suggest something and state why and cost, the team decides whether we should do it or not.

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45 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

We keep the car at one team member's shop, someone else has an enclosed trailer, another has the truck to pull it, I guide the build of the car.  I will suggest something and state why and cost, the team decides whether we should do it or not.

 

I simply pay for everything.  So far it's been pretty popular.

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