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No Points Engine Management Systems Good or Bad for the Series?


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What are your thoughts?

 

Haltech, Motec, AEM, Megasquirt, race gas, radical timing advances and balanced & blueprinted motors to take advantage of it, thousands and thousands of dollars and as of last season no points hit.

 

Talking about now having to keep up with the Jones to keep up with the Jones on the track.

 

One recent no point rule change that really opened up a can of worms.

 

 

 

 

Edited by flboy7x
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I agree I think the ECU rule opens up the option to spend lots of money for a slight advantage and I am  not a fan of it. Race gas and engine tuning is cost prohibitive for my team which puts us at a disadvantage. I have not heard of anyone running race gas but teams could if they really wanted to do all they could within the rules to win. 

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My $0.02

 

Stock, modified ECU is fine, why?

1)No way to police

2) Gets rid of issues related to "chip keys"

3)Generally allows some level of tune to make things right after mild engine mods.

4) Equals with free carb jetting/distributor timing for those with such antiquated induction techniques. See #3

5)People are going to do it anyway. See #1

 

Megasquirt, personally not sure of its limitations but it does give more control to modify parameters, seems a bit chumpy, easier for some to make a swap work rather then run the stock ECU.  Jury out, will let others chime in.

 

Motec/Haltech and the like:

Dislike, we are amateurs, many of witch do not have the budget for such things. Taken to the extreme,  I can bet one of those systems + dyno time + professional tuner = almost as much as we have into our entire car.

Not good for a "all inclusive" series.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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14 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

My $0.02

 

Stock, modified ECU is fine, why?

1)No way to police

2) Gets rid of issues related to "chip keys"

3)Generally allows some level of tune to make things right after mild engine mods.

4) Equals with free carb jetting/distributor timing for those with such antiquated induction techniques. See #3

5)People are going to do it anyway. See #1

 

Megasquirt, personally not sure of its limitations but it does give more control to modify parameters, seems a bit chumpy, easier for some to make a swap work rather then run the stock ECU.  Jury out, will let others chime in.

 

Motec/Haltech and the like:

Dislike, we are amateurs, many of witch do not have the budget for such things. Taken to the extreme,  I can bet one of those systems + dyno time + professional tuner = almost as much as we have into our entire car.

Not good for a "all inclusive" series.

 

As I was reading the OP, this is exactly where my thoughts went Ed. Once again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

 

ECU's went to "free" because they could not be policed, ok fine. Then why not include Megasquirt, it's chumpy and relatively low cost and lets the tinker-type people play, ok fine. Then it became "open" and you have the new issues as stated above. People with big budgets willing to run high dollar systems to the point of running an entire Champcar race using race gas.

 

Speaking of race gas.... for all of the peeps that got out the pitchforks in support of no fuel rules, here is what you get.

 

I'll say it again, if you want to run race gas, it should be declared to tech ahead of time. WHY? Big difference between someone trying to make an old stock-ish Porsche try to live for 14 hours that needs a blend of race fuel VS what we just saw at Sebring with someone with a $2k+ Haltech ECU, cams (and I'm sure those head decks were just "cleaned up" :rolleyes:) and tuned to within an inch of it's life. 

 

 

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Keeping stock ecu boxes will keep this a fun amateur series like it's been before the rules change. I hadn't heard of anyone complaining about race fuel until ecu's became free game.

 

Freeing up teams to run high dollar engine management systems will eventually turn the series into a semi-professional arms race...

 

How do you think 30yr old e30's and 944's dropped 3-4 seconds off their lap times overnight.

 

Not hating on them, but keep this series amateur and not an arms race with the teams with the deepest pockets running at the front because of non-oe high dollar electronics.

 

 

Edited by flboy7x
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race gas. Available at pumps everywhere.  including airports. Plus some areas like Florida you don't want to use the water infused gasoline. 

 

even stock ECUs can be made with Megasquirts inside. and they are really not that big in the scheme of things. 10 to 20hp? and most guys have no clue what they are doing with tuning so boom goes the engine. If they do? they get more power, and more power is more fuel. So they stop more.

 

and those teams with the deepest pockets are not winning those races. 

 

and for the record, I use stock ECU with no mods to it. and I still pass the modded ECU cars. 

 

and you can't blame ECUs on the sudden drop in lap times. Look at the guys that upped their game by removing weight. That is the biggest mod you can do, and I have gone to most CCES races in 2016 and 2017, I saw this huge transformation in the cars. The teams that paid attention to weight are the ones that took over the podiums. 

that 944 it drilled full of holes and has a nice wrap job over it.
 

 

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1 minute ago, Bill Strong said:

even stock ECUs can be made with Megasquirts inside. and they are really not that big in the scheme of things. 10 to 20hp? and most guys have no clue what they are doing with tuning so boom goes the engine. If they do? they get more power, and more power is more fuel. So they stop more.

 

 

In case you aren't caught up on the never ending Sebring thread:

yes we run race fuel and haltech computers race. the engines i run are balanced and blueprinted and we run very very very aggressive cams which are 50 points. remember our base car value is 250 points. we run very high rpms, up to 8k and we run very very very lean with very advanced timing. we run lean to conserve fuel to get as close to 2 hours as possible. the race fuel allows us to run very lean without knocking.

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I know my new team can't afford $150 for every fuel stop. And there wouldn't be any significant performance gain by doing so with our "stock" box.

 

You don't think "Doc" shakes his head every time a sister e30 blows by his car at warp speed on "crystal meth" and thinks what the hell.

 

I don't think that was happening in the past, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

I also think the motor swap rule opened up another can of worms, but who am I to say.

 

Keep it as simple and as amatuer as possible, and run what the car came with.

 

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6 minutes ago, flboy7x said:

The amatuerism is what attracted teams to this series in the first place and I see it unfortunately starting to go the opposite way.

Admitting Sebring did involve some major payers breaking mid day (and a DQ/withdrawal), it should be noted, the winner and runner up of a race w/66 cars, are both older, within spirit, lower budget builds;)

Edited by Team Infiniti
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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

My $0.02

 

Stock, modified ECU is fine, why?

1)No way to police

2) Gets rid of issues related to "chip keys"

3)Generally allows some level of tune to make things right after mild engine mods.

4) Equals with free carb jetting/distributor timing for those with such antiquated induction techniques. See #3

5)People are going to do it anyway. See #1

 

Megasquirt, personally not sure of its limitations but it does give more control to modify parameters, seems a bit chumpy, easier for some to make a swap work rather then run the stock ECU.  Jury out, will let others chime in.

 

Motec/Haltech and the like:

Dislike, we are amateurs, many of witch do not have the budget for such things. Taken to the extreme,  I can bet one of those systems + dyno time + professional tuner = almost as much as we have into our entire car.

Not good for a "all inclusive" series.

 

Not all aftermarket ecu's are the same for each mfg.

 

Our  team has decided to spend the cash for an ecu for our neon as there is no way to tune one with the mods that the rules have allowed. We went to a ms3pro setup from megasquirt. With all the add ons it is more expensive than the one we have from halltech for our turbo pt cruiser. Go figure.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

then this would be known as ChampCar Endurance Series Spec E46. 

Because if you did that, that is what we would race.

 

Sure, a 190hp 2.5 liter "C" classed car competing against same class 300hp motor swapped cars isn't what this series was founded on and grew from.

 

Talk about bringing a pillow to a gunfight.

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6 hours ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

We went to a ms3pro setup from megasquirt. With all the add ons it is more expensive than the one we have from halltech for our turbo pt cruiser. Go figure.

Name perception problem bringing pitchforks to a cheaper answer ? What would you suggest, neither of your solutions are cheapish.

 

And, this still goes with my earlier "jury still out" on megasquirt.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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1 minute ago, Team Infiniti said:

Name perception problem bringing pitchforks to a cheaper answer ? What would you suggest, neither of your solutions are cheapish.

 

And, this still goes with my earlier statement "jury still out" on megasquirt.

 Depends what you call cheap. Change platform to keep up with the rest of the field or drop $1100cdn and start wiring and keep all the spares you have acquired over 8 years of racing.

 

dont hate the player hate the game.

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IMO this series is still the least expensive for real quiality racing out there.

 

This will be our third year racing, I did not find it daunting to enter the series but I, and I assume most new teams, started off with the goal to finish the race, not be competitive.  It takes time to develop a car and drivers to be a winning team which just shows the quality of the drivers in this series 

 

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15 minutes ago, Z06LOL said:

IMO this series is still the least expensive for real quiality racing out there.

 

This will be our third year racing, I did not find it daunting to enter the series but I, and I assume most new teams, started off with the goal to finish the race, not be competitive.  It takes time to develop a car and drivers to be a winning team which just shows the quality of the drivers in this series 

 

 

yeah, you develop the car by dropping in a different motor than the one it came with and then purchase a $2K engine management system and $700 on tuning it then bring your engine management specialist/motor builder to the track just in case.

 

grassroots racing at its finest. 

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Shocks and struts - $1,000

Brake upgrade - depends on how you do it but anywhere from $500 - $2,500

Engine swap - depends on how big of a change but say on average $1,000 for a kit plus the engine for another $700

Fuel cell - depending on what you need want but say anywhere from $1,000 to $3,000 when equipped with hydramat/external surge/fittings/etc.

Swap rear gears - $500

Headers - $200 - $800

Freshen a set of heads with milling/valves/seats/guides - $800

Coilover kit with springs, each end of the car - $350

Dyno tune and custom chip - $1,000

8 wheels for wider than stock rubber - $1,000

Front and rear wing/splitter - $500

 

Soooo, what seems out of line here?  Some cars need want so of the above, others all of the above, others, just a bit of the above.  Choose your car according to your abilities.

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8 minutes ago, flboy7x said:

  

When you hit the go pedal and you leave a similiar car in the class in the dust that has nothing to do with suspension anything but engine hp and torque which is not dramatically altered with a chip.

 

 

Fixed that up for you.  If you think manufacturers have left 20/30/50 hp on the table with poor tuning, think again.

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