jackjoy Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 I was wondering about NON-OE sway bar links. We are ripping brand new ones apart by the end of every race and need something more rigid. As listed in the 2018 rules, I don't see anything specific except for "suspension component, non-OE 10pts per corner. So is a link really a suspension component? It suspends nothing, and just holds the sway bar...thoughts??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Ray Franck Posted January 15, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 If it's ripping apart it's holding something ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 Take the points for a non OE sway bar and get better links for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 31 minutes ago, mhr650 said: Take the points for a non OE sway bar and get better links for free. This appears to be the general consensus. We'll let everybody know after we tech our new build in April, lol. Note that we did NOT take points for Heims with the AM swaybar on our 626. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 7 hours ago, jackjoy said: I was wondering about NON-OE sway bar links. We are ripping brand new ones apart by the end of every race and need something more rigid. As listed in the 2018 rules, I don't see anything specific except for "suspension component, non-OE 10pts per corner. So is a link really a suspension component? It suspends nothing, and just holds the sway bar...thoughts??? Heim Joints 5pts per, was specifically written in the rules for aftermarket sway bar end links... You can modify your stock ones; plastic or aftermarket rubber bushings are free, If you can get away with one rod end per side, you can use the heim joint rule for 10 points total, if you would need to use pairs, you will be at 20 points, so aftermarket bar with rod ends at that point makes more sense. Plus with the aftermarket bar, you also get to use aftermarket bar mounts, which allow much more precise bar control. On or CRX, we use a multi part splined rear bar, very stout part, and arguably one of the most important parts of our car, worth the most time.. Right after the right tires, the bar makes the suspension work, without it, the shocks and springs just couldn't cope with the body roll; the tires would never be on the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 Where on earth did you get that interpretation? Until the 2017 revision the only mention of Heim joints in the rule book was for replacement tie rod ends. In 2017 they dropped the tie rod end part of the rule and just made it 5 points per rod end, unfortunately they don’t give any guidance where that 5 points would come into play. People use rod ends for all kind of things in race cars, do you really need to take pints if you use rod ends to mount your window net? Your windshield wiper linkage? Mount your steering column to the roll cage? Lots of other possible applications that have no influence on the performance of the car. I know that there have been some egregious misapplication of the rules in the past, but that was just a tech man trying to prove how big his ___ was. I heard of a ruling where someone was charged $50 for a sway bar, plus $40 for the rod end connector links, plus $75 for the poly bushings that were required to install the larger sway bar. Tech has been much better lately at considering a non-standard component as the assembly of parts that are required to make up said component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 I don't think the links do much. A good factory replacement should work fine. Depending on car you could just go and grab a factory bar from a performance model. Like if you had a 4cyl Camaro and then grabbed a set of bars off a IROC, still factory and wouldn't be accessed as a points hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karman1970 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: I don't think the links do much. A good factory replacement should work fine. Depending on car you could just go and grab a factory bar from a performance model. Like if you had a 4cyl Camaro and then grabbed a set of bars off a IROC, still factory and wouldn't be accessed as a points hit. Uh, says who? If you're still running a base-model anything, using stuff that was never offered on it from the factory is points. You can't piece together a car with a set of options that never existed in real life. Or it used to be that way anyhow... That or we've been reading the rules wrong the entire time, which would explain some of our lack of pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted January 16, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, karman1970 said: Uh, says who? If you're still running a base-model anything, using stuff that was never offered on it from the factory is points. You can't piece together a car with a set of options that never existed in real life. Or it used to be that way anyhow... That or we've been reading the rules wrong the entire time, which would explain some of our lack of pace. You are correct, if you are a DX you have to run all DX parts and cannot run Si stuff unless you are an Si or claim the part as non stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogren-Engineering Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 If the bar came off another version of the car, you pay the pts. Some model cars have a couple of bars. Wagons have bigger front bars then sedans etc. Pay the pts if upgrading bars. The links can use any bushings tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, karman1970 said: Uh, says who? If you're still running a base-model anything, using stuff that was never offered on it from the factory is points. You can't piece together a car with a set of options that never existed in real life. Or it used to be that way anyhow... That or we've been reading the rules wrong the entire time, which would explain some of our lack of pace. SO if I buy a 4 cyl Fox Body and set it up like A GT you get hit for everything? But If I start w/ a GT it's all free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zack_280 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 34 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: SO if I buy a 4 cyl Fox Body and set it up like A GT you get hit for everything? But If I start w/ a GT it's all free? Maybe you could just claim it as a GT with a 4cyl swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead_42 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 35 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: SO if I buy a 4 cyl Fox Body and set it up like A GT you get hit for everything? But If I start w/ a GT it's all free? Well, yeah. That's why it has a separate line on the points list with a separate value. or was there green text there that I missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 50 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: SO if I buy a 4 cyl Fox Body and set it up like A GT you get hit for everything? But If I start w/ a GT it's all free? Top secret winning combo - a V8 comes free with a GT as well. Stand back, the series is about to be DOMINATED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 45 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said: Well, yeah. That's why it has a separate line on the points list with a separate value. or was there green text there that I missed? So why buy a 4cyl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: So why buy a 4cyl To have a lot of spare points for suspension, aero, and turbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 57 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: So why buy a 4cyl The only differences between the 4/6/8 cyl cars are: Springs (free) ECU (free) Wiring (free) Engine (pick one depending on how many spare points you would like) Trans (WC versus non-WC, swap applicable trans with engine) Diff (swap applicable diff with engine) If swapping any Mustang start with the V8 points. Do the 4 cylinder if you fear fuel capacity or if your buddy sold you a caged shell and you have another buddy with a V8 collecting dust. Gas tank size is the same across all Mustangs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 3 hours ago, TiredBirds said: So why buy a 4cyl Cus the v8 has all those extra parts. More weight and more things to break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 On 1/16/2018 at 8:16 AM, mhr650 said: Where on earth did you get that interpretation? Until the 2017 revision the only mention of Heim joints in the rule book was for replacement tie rod ends. In 2017 they dropped the tie rod end part of the rule and just made it 5 points per rod end, unfortunately they don’t give any guidance where that 5 points would come into play. From tech of course. Also known as the "Heim Joint Tax" A big reason for the points rule was at that time to speed up techs valuation of stuff, basically there was a bushing rule and a "heim joint rule" that "heim joint rule" was being applied to anything with a spherical bearing, but... was essentially mute moot (thanks mender) due to the application of the "10 point non OE suspension component" since you almost always add rod ends in pairs... Yes I understand initially it was written for tie rod ends, but it was applied to things like camber adjusters etc... IE we had a camber adjuster made from two rod ends, and some threaded rod, we were valued at 10 points non OE suspension component, not as a "home made camber / caster" adjuster... we were told if we wanted it to be a 5 point part, we had to not use spherical.. We claimed our rear trailing arm spherical at 10 points because its the bearing, carrier and a couple of small plates, and a bit of bar stock, seemed easier than trying to say they were 5 points plus some minor material cost. For a while Tech (in some regions) was adding Heim Joint Points on top of the other points, like an aftermarket sway bar, but since Phil has clarified and sway bars include end links including rod ends in the points. Techs clarification to me was that the heim joint tax applies when you had a stock part and used a spherical bearing instead of a poly one. Your mileage and experience may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 I like this thread. More tech questions. Said in the emperor's voice.... good, good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Xph said: ... was essentially mute ... You couldn't hear complaining? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jab31169 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 5:19 PM, mhr650 said: Take the points for a non OE sway bar and get better links for free. We got no points to spend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, Jab31169 said: We got no points to spend... Then well you have to use derlin bushings; which are zero points, and use better "fasteners" so you get high grade washers and bolts, which are also free. Anything else will probably cost you points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 17 hours ago, mender said: You couldn't hear complaining? Well since you cant actually hear the forums, and its where all the complaining was done... no... But yes the whole "Tie Rod End" being applied to "spherical bearings" and then updated to "Heim Joints" blah blah... its a particularly weak spot in the FPV list in my opinion... In my mind, they could just remove this one... if the desire is to offer a less point option for stock parts with spherical bearings, then they should just make it 5 points for a stock part with spherical bearings / heim joints and 10 points for a replacement part. That would make more sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Glad the bushings for my lowers are not visible. Btw not spherical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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