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11 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

FIFY

I don't think anyone is 'running harder or longer' based on rocker arms.  If so, we need to revisit the Huggy cheating because they run pretty hard and long *giggity*.

So this is the product description on the FEBI arms:" If there is one weak point to the internals of the M20 engine, it's the camshaft rocker arms. They're actually designed to be the weak link to prevent more extensive damage elsewhere in the valvetrain. The rocker arm actuates the valves as the cam lobe makes contact. But sustained running at high RPM will cause the valves to 'float' or stay open which can lead to contact between the piston and the valves. If this happens too often, it will fatigue and snap the rocker arm. Therefore, any track driven E30 should have the rockers inspected or replaced often, along with a correct valve adjustment. And any high mileage M20 engine is running the risk of failure because of fatigue and weak valve springs. It's also a good idea to use new rocker arms any time a new cam is installed as the cam and the rocker wear together."

 

That to me says yes, they are running it harder and longer...

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Just now, hotchkis23 said:

So this is the product description on the FEBI arms:" If there is one weak point to the internals of the M20 engine, it's the camshaft rocker arms. They're actually designed to be the weak link to prevent more extensive damage elsewhere in the valvetrain. The rocker arm actuates the valves as the cam lobe makes contact. But sustained running at high RPM will cause the valves to 'float' or stay open which can lead to contact between the piston and the valves. If this happens too often, it will fatigue and snap the rocker arm. Therefore, any track driven E30 should have the rockers inspected or replaced often, along with a correct valve adjustment. And any high mileage M20 engine is running the risk of failure because of fatigue and weak valve springs. It's also a good idea to use new rocker arms any time a new cam is installed as the cam and the rocker wear together."

 

That to me says yes, they are running it harder and longer...

The way I read it is you can run as long and hard as you like, just be sure to inspect your OE rockers regularly.  

 

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5 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

The way I read it is you can run as long and hard as you like, just be sure to inspect your OE rockers regularly.  

 

You read that but not the part about designed weakness to protect from further damage?   Really.  

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1 hour ago, Jab31169 said:

 

Yea sorry I didn't know you totaled a car, thats a bummer.

 

Yea, I see what you are saying, but the Note #2 in the swap sheet states 100 points for any factory turbo or supercharged applications, which would make 450 the highest VPI for that model providing champ has the non-turbo'd model listed. 

 

How were you scoring your points previously when you ran the Turbo car?  Where you at 350 or 450?

we were scoring and the vpi is 350, there is no turbo model listed, you have to add the 100 points, i think!

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20 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

You read that but not the part about designed weakness to protect from further damage?   Really.  

Read that too...Hence the regular inspection comment I made. 

 

It almost reads like you are making the argument that E30's running heavy duty rocker arms have a performance advantage and also saying that heavy duty rocker arms might cause other parts of the valvetrain to fail.  Seems like a contradiction.  Or maybe I'm reading between the lines too hard.

 

I get the gist of what everyone is saying on free parts in general and this being a general part that shouldn't be free because nothing's free (or whatever the reason is).  I'd argue that the logic for using the stronger rocker arm is to save money in the long run, and not to gain a competitive advantage.  I don't think the rocker arms themselves will change the way anyone drives.  It could mean they break a rocker arms less often, or that they replace/inspect rocker arms between races.  But it (probably) does not change the way the car is driven.  I guess it's up to Champcar to decide on what they agree or disagree with in that regard and up to us to live with it.   

 

That's just my $0.02 as a person with an opinion on the internet.  (So take it with a grain of salt).

 

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6 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

I'd argue that the logic for using the stronger rocker arm is to save money in the long run, and not to gain a competitive advantage.  I don't think the rocker arms themselves will change the way anyone drives.

 Changing rocker arm to oil cooler and it sounds like a similar dead horse argument

 

I'd argue that the logic for using the oil cooler is to save money in the long run, and not to gain a competitive advantage.  I don't think the oil cooler themselves will change the way anyone drives.

 

The answer to oil cooler is "pay pts. or back off a little"  In this context, how would you address the new great rocker arm debate?

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7 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

Read that too...Hence the regular inspection comment I made. 

 

It almost reads like you are making the argument that E30's running heavy duty rocker arms have a performance advantage and also saying that heavy duty rocker arms might cause other parts of the valvetrain to fail.  Seems like a contradiction.  Or maybe I'm reading between the lines too hard.

 

I get the gist of what everyone is saying on free parts in general and this being a general part that shouldn't be free because nothing's free (or whatever the reason is).  I'd argue that the logic for using the stronger rocker arm is to save money in the long run, and not to gain a competitive advantage.  I don't think the rocker arms themselves will change the way anyone drives.  It could mean they break a rocker arms less often, or that they replace/inspect rocker arms between races.  But it (probably) does not change the way the car is driven.  I guess it's up to Champcar to decide on what they agree or disagree with in that regard and up to us to live with it.   

 

That's just my $0.02 as a person with an opinion on the internet.  (So take it with a grain of salt).

 

I understand where you are coming from.   I disagree, it's a part that improves durability, thus performance in an endurance race.  It should be points in my opinion.     

 

All of these issues need yo come out.  And EVERYONE should be informed.  Not just the ones that get emails from Phil. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

I get the gist of what everyone is saying on free parts in general and this being a general part that shouldn't be free because nothing's free (or whatever the reason is).

 

It's not just that nothing is free.  In this case it is clearly spelled out in the rules.

 

From the BCCR (emphasis by me):

4.3.2. Fixed Point Value List

camshaft or valve train, non-OE: 50 pts per engine

 

Rockers are without a doubt part of the valve train so replacing them with non-OE parts means that you need to take 50 points. 

 

The one silver lining seems to be that since the rule says "per engine" and not "per part" you might as well do the cam, valve springs, and valves while you are in there.  It's the same 50 points not matter how many valve train parts you upgrade.

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4 minutes ago, moortom said:

 

It's not just that nothing is free.  In this case it is clearly spelled out in the rules.

 

From the BCCR (emphasis by me):

4.3.2. Fixed Point Value List

camshaft or valve train, non-OE: 50 pts per engine

 

Rockers are without a doubt part of the valve train so replacing them with non-OE parts means that you need to take 50 points. 

 

The one silver lining seems to be that since the rule says "per engine" and not "per part" you might as well do the cam, valve springs, and valves while you are in there.  It's the same 50 points not matter how many valve train parts you upgrade.

interesting argument, so cams, valves and springs and rockers all changed for 50 points???  interesting!

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When I ran SpecE30, you had to have stock rocker arms because anything else was a competitive advantage.  This meant that people would have stock rocker arms "inspected" for defects/cracks/inclusions/microscopic imperfections to maintain reliability while still using the stock parts.  I don't know if this rule has changed, but pulling the valve cover will quickly show if someone has more robust rocker arms.

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2 minutes ago, ttuttlelandscape said:

interesting argument, so cams, valves and springs and rockers all changed for 50 points???  interesting!

 Not sure, I read it Camshaft  OR valvetrain 

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To all of the E30's and your lil weenie rocker arms, we didn't pick your platform :lol: :lol: :lol: 

 

man, that line never gets old...

 

(yea yea yea, I've broken a stamped rocker too)

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19 minutes ago, moortom said:

 

It's not just that nothing is free.  In this case it is clearly spelled out in the rules.

 

From the BCCR (emphasis by me):

4.3.2. Fixed Point Value List

camshaft or valve train, non-OE: 50 pts per engine

 

Rockers are without a doubt part of the valve train so replacing them with non-OE parts means that you need to take 50 points. 

 

The one silver lining seems to be that since the rule says "per engine" and not "per part" you might as well do the cam, valve springs, and valves while you are in there.  It's the same 50 points not matter how many valve train parts you upgrade.

Not so fast....

 

it says camshaft OR valvetrain.  50 pts for cam.  50 pts for the remainder of the valvetrain.

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13 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

When I ran SpecE30, you had to have stock rocker arms because anything else was a competitive advantage. 

Are you referring to this SPEC E30 rule?

image.png.aed79ba6edb26ec43385f7ab39f555f8.png

 

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Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

Not so fast....

 

it says camshaft OR valvetrain.  50 pts for cam.  50 pts for the remainder of the valvetrain.

 

Merely as devils advocate here, aren't camshafts part of the valvetrain?

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Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

Not so fast....

 

it says camshaft OR valvetrain.  50 pts for cam.  50 pts for the remainder of the valvetrain.

 

Like they care anyways   :lol: :lol: 

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Just now, ElectricGold said:

 

Merely as devils advocate here, aren't camshafts part of the valvetrain?

 

I hate a lot of the rulebook wording as well, but it is pretty clear that for value purposes, it's treated as 2 items

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Just now, ElectricGold said:

 

Merely as devils advocate here, aren't camshafts part of the valvetrain?

They are in my mind.  But the rule says OR.  Therefore in the rulebook, they are not 1 and the same.

 

I assume it is written this way so people dont just go get different ratio rocker arms instead of a cam.

 

It clearly says OR.  You dont get a free cam with rocker upgrades.  You dont get free valve springs and rockers with a cam upgrade.  They are seperate in the rules.

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7 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 

Like they care anyways   :lol: :lol: 

Boo,  they are still trying, perhaps a readjustment will be good for all.

 

*stows pitchfork, puts out torch *

Edited by Team Infiniti

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26 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Changing rocker arm to oil cooler and it sounds like a similar dead horse argument

Agreed.  I also think I think oil coolers should be free.  Mainly because they are availalble on a lot of cars and it just makes sense.  

 

How about this....Change that to alternator, harmonic balancer, oil pump, water pump, etc.  All of those could be  replaced with something that provides some advantage over an OE part (it's cheaper, it pumps more fluid, etc).  

28 minutes ago, moortom said:

camshaft or valve train, non-OE: 50 pts per engine

What do you do here?  Purchase the $55 rocker to replace the one you just broke, or save $35 and add 50 pts to your TCV?  Or are both of these OE?

image.thumb.png.7c75f9effbd8d043535bdfcd0a7ff382.png

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I have been asked by Management to close this thread. I am closing it now

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