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Electric Water Pumps


RandomTask
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Anyone running one? Thoughts? SBC guys swear by them; better flow for cooler temps.  We have some heat soak issues in the pit - walks the temps up sitting for a couple min, usually enough to cause us to start burping coolant. 

Rules state the cutoff has to be in the "off" position during pit, but nothing else; anything against running a battery pack to power the water pump during fueling? IE - Hook up a power pack to some terminals that power the water pump only? 

 

Cheers,

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   Power off is supposed to be 100% off, I would imagine hooking up an alternate power supply would still violate that as you are now creating a live circuit/ignition point where the connection is made. The only exception seems to be small battery powered door lights which are no longer a requirement  

 

The brief surge in temperature is no big deal if you can control it by using  an 18 or 20 pound cap. (early 2000's Dakota would be one common application)

 Saying that, if you make an electric water pump work in this application we all would like to know! 

Edited by Team Infiniti
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4 minutes ago, Lethal Cliff said:

Put a big fan in front of the car before you start refueling.

 I don't think electric appliances would be allowed over the wall during fueling .  Also check with tech I believe an electric water pump is gona cost points ...

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39 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

   Power off is supposed to be 100% off, I would imagine hooking up an alternate power supply would still violate that as you are now creating a live circuit/ignition point where the connection is made. The only exception seems to be small battery powered door lights which are no longer a requirement  

 

The brief surge in temperature is no big deal if you can control it by using  an 18 or 20 pound cap. (early 2000's Dakota would be one common application)

 Saying that, if you make an electric water pump work in this application we all would like to know! 

I'm just going off what the rules state; that the main power needs to be in the 'off' position. . .  which is what gave me this idea. . .  Just operating w/in the rules. They go in depth enough to say no electric fuel pumps for filling jugs. . . but don't broach this subject.

 

22 minutes ago, Lethal Cliff said:

Put a big fan in front of the car before you start refueling.


  First, airflow isn't the issue, it's sitting coolant. The other aspect of it, if you could run a big electric flame fanning fan, why not just powering a water pump? 

Edited by RandomTask
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  You may be able to run it but having it on during fueling I'm sure won't fly .   Don't understand why you are having a heat problem during stops . I've run several different v8 cars in this series and it's never been an issue. .

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In order for the coolant to do its job you need two things:

 

1. Air flow, you need a fan moving air so heat can be transferred from the coolant and rad to the air.

2. Coolant to be circulating, the job of the water pump.

 

I haven't seen any other cars having this issue, maybe you have something else going on - head gasket going bad?  Is the problem changing over time?

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1. Are you running a small crank pulley?

2. Is your radiator up to the task of cooling a V8 in race conditions?

3. Are you running a high volume water pump? 

4. Do you have enough air movement into the radiator AND out of the engine compartment? Going in is important but the air needs to get out of the engine compartment to remove the heat.

5. Try a 160 degree thermostat. Slowing the the coolant DOWN helps remove heat from the motor.

 

We run a V8 and once we took care of these issues we had no more over heating.

 

Hope this helps.

 

2 hours ago, RandomTask said:

Anyone running one? Thoughts? SBC guys swear by them; better flow for cooler temps.  We have some heat soak issues in the pit - walks the temps up sitting for a couple min, usually enough to cause us to start burping coolant. 

Rules state the cutoff has to be in the "off" position during pit, but nothing else; anything against running a battery pack to power the water pump during fueling? IE - Hook up a power pack to some terminals that power the water pump only? 

 

Cheers,

 

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46 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

People dont turn off their gopros during fueling so there is still some current flowing somewhere...

Every Gopro I have seen has its own internal battery. Most radios also have batteries. Those things pose no threat of spark, while amateur wiring and spinning electric motors do. 

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8 hours ago, RandomTask said:

Anyone running one? Thoughts? SBC guys swear by them; better flow for cooler temps.  We have some heat soak issues in the pit - walks the temps up sitting for a couple min, usually enough to cause us to start 

You don't need an electric pump.  The only reason to run one is to reduce parasitic losses.

.

If its boiling on pit road and not on track you are close. Look at the rad.

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15 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

1. Are you running a small crank pulley?

2. Is your radiator up to the task of cooling a V8 in race conditions?

3. Are you running a high volume water pump? 

4. Do you have enough air movement into the radiator AND out of the engine compartment? Going in is important but the air needs to get out of the engine compartment to remove the heat.

5. Try a 160 degree thermostat. Slowing the the coolant DOWN helps remove heat from the motor.

 

We run a V8 and once we took care of these issues we had no more over heating.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Im not so sure about the bolded one.

 

Liquids do a pretty damn good job of absorbing heat quickly.  

 

In fact, mass flow rate is in the numerator of the equation for calculating heat transfer.  Which means the higher the flow rate, the more heat transfer will occur.

 

In practice, this may not be true due to other undefined variables.

 

 

Also, a restriction in the system will not necessarily change the overall fluid velocity.  It MAY just be creating a bigger pressure differential that could HELP flow through a certain area of the system.  Or, it is simply a restriction that is making the water pump work harder and actually introducing more heat into the system due to the pump ADDING heat into the system.

 

What say you engineering nerds?

 

P.S. I have heard this before.  I believe this is the reason stated for flathead fords needing help with their cooling system.

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

bigger pressure differential

Ding ding ding, Winner! But not the issue here.

 

 People, read the complaint, the car is NOT overheating under race conditions, all that is important is that the coolant is still in there when racing resumes, a stiffer cap will achieve this.

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3 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Ding ding ding, Winner! But not the issue here.

 

 People, read the complaint, the car is NOT overheating under race conditions, all that is important is that the coolant is still in there when racing resumes, a stiffer cap will achieve this.

Agreed.

 

P.S. the lower operating thermostat will not actually change the fluid flow in any way once up to temp.

 

A 160 degree thermostat will have the same flow / restriction as a 190 thermostat once the coolant temp is above 190.

 

 

Has the cap been tested?  we had a brand new cap on a brand new radiator NOT seal well.  We found it by pressure testing the system (the system has 2 caps).  The one cap was letting coolant out into the overflow.  We changed the cap, and boom, no more problems.

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4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

P.S. the lower operating thermostat will not actually change the fluid flow in any way once up to temp.

 

A 160 degree thermostat will have the same flow / restriction as a 190 thermostat once the coolant temp is above 190.

Correct but the overall flow is reduced/head pressures increased by the stat.

 

Never thought a stat was a good idea in a purpose build car, another failure point , another thing fighting you if water is needed mid race, another item to question when things are not going as planned.... just put in a set restriction and warm it up while pre grid.(5/8 always worked for us)

 

Being in FL its always a battle to shed heat, not raise it.

 

Due to block design, Infiniti carries a stock stat with several (I think 2) 5/16 holes drilled through.

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I've never had a thermostat fail in a race engine but I only use them in the "lower" classes. It really helped on the oval to get the engine up to temp quickly for the heat and main races.

 

Using a restrictor and taping up the grille to set the running engine temperature works if you have a narrow range of air temps.

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17 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

Slowing the the coolant DOWN helps remove heat from the motor.

Slowing the coolant down will make individual fluid particles take more heat, but faster fluid will move more particles. Provided that you aren’t seeing eddy flow or cavitation, faster fluid is going to be equal for heat transfer and will even out temp variation and hot spots better than slow fluid.

Edited by enginerd
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, I was under the impression that more pressure I.E.pressure cooker style keeps the microscopic  steam bubbles from forming/growing thus allowing more surface contact also preventing  loss of coolant via overheating style eruption.

 

 Doesn't this sound more like the scenario of the original post? 

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33 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

, I was under the impression that more pressure I.E.pressure cooker style keeps the microscopic  steam bubbles from forming/growing thus allowing more surface contact also preventing  loss of coolant via overheating style eruption.

 

 Doesn't this sound more like the scenario of the original post? 


Other way of saying it:

 

As your pressure increases, so does the boiling point. This is why you can boil water at room temp if you put it under a vacuum.

 

The problem with what we’re usually seeing is heat soak. At the end of our pits, our water temp has climbed up to about 245 IIRC (mechanical gauge). No amount of “Bigger cap” is going to prevent the system from tolerating that. As soon as we start the car and get coolant flowing again, it cools right back down.

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23 minutes ago, RandomTask said:


Other way of saying it:

 

As your pressure increases, so does the boiling point. This is why you can boil water at room temp if you put it under a vacuum.

 

The problem with what we’re usually seeing is heat soak. At the end of our pits, our water temp has climbed up to about 245 IIRC (mechanical gauge). No amount of “Bigger cap” is going to prevent the system from tolerating that. As soon as we start the car and get coolant flowing again, it cools right back down.

Absolutely right about the heat soak, but totally disagree about a stiffer cap,rather then speculate, have you tried one? I have cured this issue before.

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2 hours ago, RandomTask said:


Other way of saying it:

 

As your pressure increases, so does the boiling point. This is why you can boil water at room temp if you put it under a vacuum.

 

The problem with what we’re usually seeing is heat soak. At the end of our pits, our water temp has climbed up to about 245 IIRC (mechanical gauge). No amount of “Bigger cap” is going to prevent the system from tolerating that. As soon as we start the car and get coolant flowing again, it cools right back down.

According to a chart I just found online, getting up to 25 psi is more than enough to prevent boiling at 245 F. 

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