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K24z3 Swap Inquiry


dotdose
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Tl;dr anyone have experience qualifying a motor not on VPI table? Specifically K24Z3 from 08 accord.

 

Hi all,

 

Our team is considering swapping in a k24 into our Honda Fit - wondering if anyone has had experience qualifying the K24Z3 from the 08 Honda accord?

 

As I understand it, for a motor to be eligible, it must come from a vehicle in the VPI table. Problem is, current VPI only has the accord until 2007 (which has a different motor).

 

What's a bit confusing is that a more powerful version of the K24Z3 is available in the 2010 TSX, which is available in the current VPI table. However, the additional 15 HP in this variant is too costly on points. As the more powerful version is eligible, I would hope the weaker one would be allowable somehow.

 

We emailed tech a few days ago but no response yet.

 

Thanks for reading!

Edited by dotdose
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You will have to petition to have the car added to the list...   it has to be a reasonable car for chump..  both in preformance and cost..   ie find some similar cars to the accord you want..  see what their power to weight is.. fuel capacity and market price...   then provide that with those cars vpi to mike..  along with a proposed vpi for the generation of car you are trying to add..

 

 

we have a k20z2...   which was in a Canadian CSX...  which is like an RSx base but has this different engine...   getting the csx on the list was not a problem for us...  

 

 

but but I have to say..  if you are that close to maxing our the formula..  that you can’t take the higher points...  and you have two different power values for the same block..  you are probably flying too close to the sun..

 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
6 hours ago, Xph said:

You will have to petition to have the car added to the list...   it has to be a reasonable car for chump..  both in preformance and cost..

 

Cost does not impact if a car gets added to the list, it is irrelevant in that process. 

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7 hours ago, Xph said:

You will have to petition to have the car added to the list...   it has to be a reasonable car for chump..  both in preformance and cost..   ie find some similar cars to the accord you want..  see what their power to weight is.. fuel capacity and market price...   then provide that with those cars vpi to mike..  along with a proposed vpi for the generation of car you are trying to add..

 

 

we have a k20z2...   which was in a Canadian CSX...  which is like an RSx base but has this different engine...   getting the csx on the list was not a problem for us...  

 

 

but but I have to say..  if you are that close to maxing our the formula..  that you can’t take the higher points...  and you have two different power values for the same block..  you are probably flying too close to the sun..

 

Thanks for the info. Yes the oddityis that the higher output variant is already on the vpi list in the 2010 TSX. Given the nonlinear nature of swap calculation, this 205hp version is an absurd 300+ points while the weaker 190hp 08 accord version is only 121 pts, leaving plenty óf points on the table for supporting mods (given that the fit is only 150 pts base). Hopefully will get some answers from tech@chumpcar. 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
2 minutes ago, dotdose said:

Thanks for the info. Yes the oddityis that the higher output variant is already on the vpi list in the 2010 TSX. Given the nonlinear nature of swap calculation, this 205hp version is an absurd 300+ points while the weaker 190hp 08 accord version is only 121 pts, leaving plenty óf points on the table for supporting mods (given that the fit is only 150 pts base). Hopefully will get some answers from tech@chumpcar. 

 

You should get answers, and if they don't come in a "reasonable" amount of time you can contact Mike Chisek. Phil works a full time job outside of chump and is very busy. I don't see a reason they would not add the 08 accord to the list. 

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1 hour ago, red0 said:

 

You should get answers, and if they don't come in a "reasonable" amount of time you can contact Mike Chisek. Phil works a full time job outside of chump and is very busy. I don't see a reason they would not add the 08 accord to the list. 

 

My understanding is Mike does the VPI list.

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What is different about the Z3 between accord and TSX that makes it change output?  It its just tuning, that's a slippery slope adding the accord to the list.  Then you could swap in the TSX engine, and claim its an accord engine.  With tuning being free, that seems like a very dangerous game to play.

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1 hour ago, SonsOfIrony said:

What is different about the Z3 between accord and TSX that makes it change output?  It its just tuning, that's a slippery slope adding the accord to the list.  Then you could swap in the TSX engine, and claim its an accord engine.  With tuning being free, that seems like a very dangerous game to play.

That’s why we need to approve a certain petition which will be voted on by the board in June.

 

The gist is: make a list of swappable engines and their rated power output.

 

This would eliminate the ‘game’ of: find an engine in a minivan with restrictive exhaust and fuel efficient tuning, claim that this is the engine you are using, and reap the rewards of open tuning and exhaust to get a more powerful engine than the swap calculator thinks you are getting.

 

Write to your board members! Vote YES on this petition!

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6 hours ago, enginerd said:

That’s why we need to approve a certain petition which will be voted on by the board in June.

 

The gist is: make a list of swappable engines and their rated power output.

 

This would eliminate the ‘game’ of: find an engine in a minivan with restrictive exhaust and fuel efficient tuning, claim that this is the engine you are using, and reap the rewards of open tuning and exhaust to get a more powerful engine than the swap calculator thinks you are getting.

 

Write to your board members! Vote YES on this petition!

I'm kinda for that.  However, I think my 3400 swapped rx7 is the only one in existence anywhere.  Therefore, would it make the list?

 

Also, the minivan version of my engine had the highest output available, not the lowest....

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6 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm kinda for that.  However, I think my 3400 swapped rx7 is the only one in existence anywhere.  Therefore, would it make the list?

 

Also, the minivan version of my engine had the highest output available, not the lowest....

The 3400 engine would be the part that is rated, not the combo.

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm kinda for that.  However, I think my 3400 swapped rx7 is the only one in existence anywhere.  Therefore, would it make the list?

 

Also, the minivan version of my engine had the highest output available, not the lowest....

It would make the list because it would be comprehensive and no engine currently used would be omitted. It wouldn’t take long to tabulate. I would do the work if need be!

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  • 3 years later...

The 2008 K24 accord is on the VPI list.

image.png.1be606a0aac6628f9652388cd888cc03.png

 

That said some teams are claiming the 187hp JDM version of K24A. It is a ecu detuned version of the 197hp motor. Use that with a computer.  re: 2003–2008 Honda Odyssey Absolute (JDM) (RB2, AWD). 

 

The JDM K24A is the optimum setup based on the way the rules are currently being enforced. 

 

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Just now, veris said:

That said some teams are claiming the 187hp JDM version of K24A. It is a ecu detuned version of the 197hp motor. Use that with a computer.  re: 2003–2008 Honda Odyssey Absolute (JDM) (RB2, AWD). 

 

The JDM K24A is the optimum setup based on the way the rules are currently being enforced. 

I'm really surprised that there weren't any petitions to address that JDM loophole. Granted, it's only worth 1 lap for us, wouldn't be a big deal if it changed. I guess the board / Tech can still do something even without a petition.

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Just now, enginerd said:

I'm really surprised that there weren't any petitions to address that JDM loophole. Granted, it's only worth 1 lap for us, wouldn't be a big deal if it changed. I guess the board / Tech can still do something even without a petition.

Agreed.  I could have, but I'm unsure of my future with Champcar. 

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I get that this is in the rules but what is the reason why a swapped engine must be on the VPI list?  Why does this rule exist?  If all we really care about is the new engine's stock HP rating I'm not sure why it matters if the donor car is on the list at all?   I believe there are several cars/vans on the list that are never intended to be raced but got petitioned to be added solely for the engine swap possibility.

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This all seems like a vestige of a bygone error.

 

If we have to enter the swapped HP into  the swap calculator what difference does it make if the engine is on the list? Lets take this particular example. The Honda K24 family makes between 159 and 205 depending on the particular application. I will bet the 159 HP example has a ton of potential, while the 206 HP one not so much as it is probably much closer too fully optimized by the factory.

 

Lets try to make the engine swap rule really simple, and at the same time equalize potential perfomance. We already have a rule regarding chassis that is comparable.:

 

4.5.7. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation

 

How about replacing 4.5.5  and 4.5.6 and all it's subsections with something like:

 

4.5.5 Engines must use the highest valued horsepower from its generation.

 

So if it looks looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it is a duck. End result, a Honda K24 is a Honda K24 not matter if it is a K24A(ECO) or a K24W7. At the end of the day once modified they probably make about the same horsepower.  (And this is just an example, it applies equally to BMW's, Miata's, etc....)

 

I understand that one of us WILL, not may, find an example that doesn't follow this rule, but then we have to make balance of perfomance adjustment for that particular example. This might eliminate some innovation in our builders series, but at the same time it will make everything else simplier.

 

Trust me I understand how upset people will be. While I have not built a car specifically for ChampCar, I have spent a TON of time doing the math on how to exploit this rule, and know that a bunch of people will be pissed because they are very clever and their car will get hit with a bunch of points. But given the current rules cycle this will be about three years from now, so........

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2 hours ago, Throoster said:

How about replacing 4.5.5  and 4.5.6 and all it's subsections with something like:

 

4.5.5 Engines must use the highest valued horsepower from its generation.

 

So if it looks looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it is a duck. End result, a Honda K24 is a Honda K24 not matter if it is a K24A(ECO) or a K24W7. At the end of the day once modified they probably make about the same horsepower.  (And this is just an example, it applies equally to BMW's, Miata's, etc....)

At least with the K24 series, there are huge differences in the heads from one model to the next. The late years K24A2 rated 205 is not just a 'higher flowing, better ported version' of the K24A1 (eco) rated 160 hp. The K24A1 is a great engine for something like a miata or a civic and it would be absurd to take this off the table with a "must claim 205 hp" idea.

 

Now, an idea like "when an identical engine exists in multiple applications, you must claim the highest rated power"... that's something I can support. (and it's the gist of a petition that I submitted 3-4 years back)

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5 hours ago, enginerd said:

At least with the K24 series, there are huge differences in the heads from one model to the next. The late years K24A2 rated 205 is not just a 'higher flowing, better ported version' of the K24A1 (eco) rated 160 hp. The K24A1 is a great engine for something like a miata or a civic and it would be absurd to take this off the table with a "must claim 205 hp" idea.

 

Now, an idea like "when an identical engine exists in multiple applications, you must claim the highest rated power"... that's something I can support. (and it's the gist of a petition that I submitted 3-4 years back)

Just like a B18B and a B18C is not the same, or even B18C1 vs B18C5.

 

The Honda alphabet soup matters! 

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8 hours ago, Throoster said:

So if it looks looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it is a duck. End result, a Honda K24 is a Honda K24 not matter if it is a K24A(ECO) or a K24W7. At the end of the day once modified they probably make about the same horsepower.  (And this is just an example, it applies equally to BMW's, Miata's, etc....)

This comment is nonsense. There is 50hp difference between the variation due to port/head differences, camshafts, intake manifolds, valve springs, and compression. 

 

You could take a 160hp version and turn it into a 210+hp version but it would take around 100 points in modifications and some machine work.

 

I like simplification. I would like to see swaps be the exception and not the rule in Champcar. Your suggestion however isn't an improvement, it would be chaos. 

Edited by veris
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Ok, perhaps I over simplified it by truncating ALL of the X's after K24, I was using a  bit of hyperbole. And using Honda as the example could be a mistake because as Mender says, "The Honda alphabet soup matters!"

 

Lets just use the proposed engine here, the K24Z3. This engine is listed at either 190 or 201.  There is a .5 difference in the listed compression ratio between the two. Plus whatever tuning differences they may have.  This difference is easily oversome within our current rules, as I am pretty sure you can deck a head and change ECU's. Also it assumes that Honda isn't playing a game with the numbers so that the lowly Accord doesn't have the same HP as the premium TSX. As they share the same chassis I would not put it past them.

 

How about we expand it to all K24Z(X) engines. For the sake of argument I will ignore the K24Z4 at 161 HP and the K24Z1 at 166 HP as they may have something funky going on. Lets focus on the K24Z6 from the 2010-2014 CRV, which has 180-185 HP depending on the year. It has the same 10.5:1 compression ration as the 190 HP K24Z3. As far as I can tell the K24Z3 and K24Z6 share a head and have overlapping camshafts. I cannot find the exhasust manifold data, but since BCCR 4.5.3.1 allows the use of any OE exhaust manifold in a swap it is a moot point. 180 HP to 201 HP certainly seems doable here without any heavy lifting, such as 100 points in modifications and some machine work.

 

"....I would like to see swaps be the exception and not the rule in Champcar...." Veris, unfortunately I think this horse has left the barn.

 

"...Now, an idea like "when an identical engine exists in multiple applications, you must claim the highest rated power..." Enginerd, using this example how close does an identical engine" have to be? If Honda K24 is too broad is Honda K24Z close enough or would it have to be K24Z3?

 

It really doesn't matter to me, but I think it is a fascinating thought excercise.

 

 

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