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12 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

I understand and agree with what you are saying.   Please go to the calculator and input the information for yourself.  The calculator doesn't reflect what you just stated.   It didn't a couple of weeks ago and it still does not.   Base swap VPI starts at the 450 S model VPI, not the 520 S2 model VPI.   Now, the weights have been manipulated in a separate updated to allow even more hp.   Someone is clearly manipulating the calculator.  

  

 

Sorry it should have been the S and not S2 as I stated before. I am not well versed in the alphabet soup for Porsche. S and base model are very similar. S and S2 are not very similar. So it should be right with the platform swap starts with the S. S2 is in its own. 

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5 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

Sorry it should have been the S and not S2 as I stated before. I am not well versed in the alphabet soup for Porsche. S and base model are very similar. S and S2 are not very similar. So it should be right with the platform swap starts with the S. S2 is in its own. 

So yeah, somebody convinced Champ that the S2 is a completely different "generation" so the S2 value isn't the base for a swap. 

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They could do it like the mustangs, and remove the cobra S2 from the VPI list

 

🤣

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5 minutes ago, 55mini said:

Bill you missed the green font and your humor is not helping address the problem being asked.

 

 

Not my department.
 

Personally... me not being an employee, but a race team owner. I don't see problems with the current setup. I think there are just too many people looking for issues where there are not. Like every year since 2010, I have just adapted my math, my car build, and my creative interpretation of the rule set to my team and we have gone out and raced. I like gray areas. I like new math.  I see that there are people that want black or white rules. That's so SCCA. It won't happen. ever. Just build your car and go race. Cherry pick the races like so many do. Or try and compete at the big boy races. But just get off the internet and go race.
I found it the best to just stay off the forum when I was racing. Less drama. More fun. I could really work on creative ways to circumvent the rules and get my car up top. That's what I find fun about this series. I hate building cookie cutter / engineered cars. 

So go ahead and blast me for whatever I said wrong above. I won't be back here to offer a rebuttal or a sorry. I have a shitload of work to do before Atlanta and Sonoma for the department that I do handle. 

I think that many of you just need to get out of this thread for a bit and send me your team info for Atlanta and Sonoma like I have requested. 

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All Road Atlanta and Sonoma entrants, email me your driver info, and car info, and some cool stuff about your team that we can use on the show?

 

Drivers - anything special about them? Stories? Years racing?
Car - all the cheaty bits? we won't tell tech.

Where is your team based out of?

 

I will post a number that you guys can text info to during the event. Like, let us know what you are leading or losing this race.

send me an email to media@champcar.org with Road Atlanta Media or Sonoma Media in the subject line. 

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2020 rule book 

 

bring a car with 200tw tires,  and current safety equipment.   Well sort of current. 

 

TaDa   Problems solved.

 

Now to toss the silly 4cylinder and shove that LSx in the Miata

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Huggy said:

They could do it like the mustangs, and remove the cobra S2 from the VPI list

 

🤣

Just to put the conspiracy theories to bed about the Cobra, it was never on the VPI list. The BCCR specifically states:

Quote

4.2.2. If a make/model/year of a vehicle that you have an interest in racing is NOT listed, contact the ChampCar National Director of Tech & Safety (tech@champcar. org).

That's exactly what we did. Would you like to see the email we sent and the response to request for a VPI ruling before we bought the car to build? 

And FWIW, there were two other Cobras before us. 

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32 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

Sorry it should have been the S and not S2 as I stated before. I am not well versed in the alphabet soup for Porsche. S and base model are very similar. S and S2 are not very similar. So it should be right with the platform swap starts with the S. S2 is in its own. 

 

Ok, that makes sense on why the calculator is setup the way it is for VPI values.    Now the weight was changed again separately a week or more after the VPI was already changed after the BOD meeting where you guys agreed on how it was going to be handled.    The 944 is now using the factory curb weight of a car that is now theoretically a different "generation" of car and not taking the 10% off of it.   Do you see the problem?

Edited by Snake

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Just now, Snorman said:

Just to put the conspiracy theories to bed about the Cobra, it was never on the VPI list. The BCCR specifically states:

That's exactly what we did. Would you like to see the email we sent and the response to request for a VPI ruling before we bought the car to build? 

And FWIW, there were two other Cobras before us. 

 

I know.

 

I don't care about your car. I see no issue with it.

 

I just care about the un-intended consequences 4.5.6 is causing (RE page 33 of a thread that could be called "unintended consequences of 4.5.6").

 

Its been more than a quarter since you got your VPI ruling.  Its not in the VPI list because of 4.5.6.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Just to put the conspiracy theories to bed about the Cobra, it was never on the VPI list. The BCCR specifically states:

That's exactly what we did. Would you like to see the email we sent and the response to request for a VPI ruling before we bought the car to build? 

And FWIW, there were two other Cobras before us. 

It should be added to the list so All Mustangs start at that VPI then.  Just like the E30 M3 should be added.

S2, Cobra, M3. All the same.

Edited by Ronh911
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1 minute ago, Snorman said:

Just to put the conspiracy theories to bed about the Cobra, it was never on the VPI list. The BCCR specifically states:

That's exactly what we did. Would you like to see the email we sent and the response to request for a VPI ruling before we bought the car to build? 

And FWIW, there were two other Cobras before us. 

Nobody is saying that you did anything wrong. The problem is that now that there is a value for the cobra, why hasn’t it been put on the VPI list?

(I will be submitting a petition addressing this)

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2 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

It should be added to the list so All Mustangs start at that VPI then.  Just like the E30 M3 should be added.

Isn't it a bit odd that you think the top performing Cobra should be on the VPI list so all Mustangs use that value as a base, but you've vehemently argued that the S2 shouldn't be the base value for a 944 swap? 🤨

"Odd" isn't really the word I want to use, but I don't want to be rude. 

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20 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

 

bring a car with 200tw tires, 

 

 

 

 

180TW is the current rule

 

4.7.1. Tires: Tire must be DOT legal and the UTQG treadwear rated at 180 or higher.

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22 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Personally... me not being an employee, but a race team owner. I don't see problems with the current setup. I think there are just too many people looking for issues where there are not. Like every year since 2010, I have just adapted my math, my car build, and my creative interpretation of the rule set to my team and we have gone out and raced. I like gray areas. I like new math.  I see that there are people that want black or white rules. That's so SCCA. It won't happen. ever. Just build your car and go race. Cherry pick the races like so many do. Or try and compete at the big boy races. But just get off the internet and go race.
I found it the best to just stay off the forum when I was racing. Less drama. More fun. I could really work on creative ways to circumvent the rules and get my car up top. That's what I find fun about this series. I hate building cookie cutter / engineered cars. 

While some people find it entertaining to see how well they can sidestep the rules with creative interpretation, Champcar has an obligation to the entire field of cars to be internally consistent with those rules.

 

Regarding your personal ethic and circumventing the rules: some euphemistically call it colouring or thinking outside the box; others just call it cheating. Very satisfying to know that my legal car was faster at one of the big boy tracks than your "new mathed" car. :)

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10 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Nobody is saying that you did anything wrong. The problem is that now that there is a value for the cobra, why hasn’t it been put on the VPI list?

(I will be submitting a petition addressing this)

 

I have already submitted one to that affect.  Not that submitting multiple would be a bad thing though.

image.png.3237abb4d102160828d3d6f8f2f8a006.png

 

4.2.2 says this.

image.png.7c8b3c9949a1b15bbc50718a6a2813da.png

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Isn't it a bit odd that you think the top performing Cobra should be on the VPI list so all Mustangs use that value as a base, but you've vehemently argued that the S2 shouldn't be the base value for a 944 swap? 🤨

"Odd" isn't really the word I want to use, but I don't want to be rude. 

 I only think the Cobra and M3 should be used if the S2 is used for 944s. 

I’m an ex-Airborne Infantryman, you can be rude all you want, I’m sure I’ve heard worse.

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19 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

 

180TW is the current rule

 

4.7.1. Tires: Tire must be DOT legal and the UTQG treadwear rated at 180 or higher.

You missed the point....my line replaced that as well.   And You just told us we don't have to follow rules anyway.   

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1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

You missed the point....my line replaced that as well.   And You just told us we don't have to follow rules anyway.   

 

 

no. I get emails all the time with people reading posts that they have to use 200tw. I email them back and tell them not to use forum posts or social media posts to build their car. That a lot of stuff posted online is fake, or diversionary to sent others off into different directions. So I wanted to make certain that the guys that build their cars via the forum understood that the BCCR stated the above text. If you need a link to the BCCR, just email me.

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29 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

 I only think the Cobra and M3 should be used if the S2 is used for 944s. 

 

lets ignore the S2 at this time and ask.. do you think the 944 should have its weight be adjusted to match all other cars on the VPI list? or do you think it should get more weight like it does currently?

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1 hour ago, Ronh911 said:

 I only think the Cobra and M3 should be used if the S2 is used for 944s. 

I’m an ex-Airborne Infantryman, you can be rude all you want, I’m sure I’ve heard worse.

 

Quick check of production numbers tells me the cobra should be on the VPI list, and the S2 should not.

 

E30 M3 had about 6000 NA production units.  Including the Vert.  Almost identical numbers to the S2.

 

The SN95 cobra had nearly 40,000 from 94-97 if the vert is included...   

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1 hour ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

lets ignore the S2 at this time and ask.. do you think the 944 should have its weight be adjusted to match all other cars on the VPI list? or do you think it should get more weight like it does currently?

Good question, I would not have changed the weight to that number, however I would have corrected the incorrect to low of a weight that the cars have been receiving for the past 2 years

(I sent Champcar a spreadsheet about the incorrect weights last year also).  But then I would have just made the S 425 points and the S2 450 and called it a day. Then we can all move on to MR2s and E30s.

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6 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

Good question, I would not have changed the weight to that number, however I would have corrected the incorrect to low of a weight that the cars have been receiving for the past 2 years

(I sent Champcar a spreadsheet about the incorrect weights last year also).  But then I would have just made the S 425 points and the S2 450 and called it a day. Then we can all move on to MR2s and E30s.

What should the weight be?  Spec 944 uses 2600lb with driver...

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patience, people.  working on it. 

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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

patience

Jer I have a much better word for this but I get in all kinds of trouble from my better half when I use it.   RELAX!  :-)

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41 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

I would have just made the S 425 points and the S2 450 and called it a day. 

 

You keep on throwing out there you wanting a 450pt 208hp 3 liter 944 for your benefit...

 

That would set a precedent for other 3 liter models (330i E46) that are currently over 500pts to be dropped to or below that threshold also. 

 

 

Edited by Racer7x
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