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Swap Calculator is Live!

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I will update Monday or Tuesday, traveling today. 

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Ok back.  Here is the deal.  Do not shoot the messenger.  Mike decided that the 944 should be a 500 point car so he put an artificially high weight in, similar to the M50e30 swap weight deal.  The Board minutes on it are hard to understand (audio).  Mike started out saying that he wanted to put it at 500 playing with the but the Board never really discussed playing with the weight, just that it should be a platform swap.  This is one of those deals that lends credence to having a common swap VPI table.  If you really have an issue with it please contact Mike.  As for the car, it seems to be just another fast car at 500 points.  Both 944s were fast at Road Atlanta but neither finished without major issue. Cone Crushers burned.   

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So he is effectively eliminating the weight portion of the swap calculator himself?

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I'd like to hear the rationale for why the 944 should be a 500-point car. And why the weight has to change to do that. 

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35 minutes ago, Jer said:

Ok back.  Here is the deal.  Do not shoot the messenger.  Mike decided that the 944 should be a 500 point car so he put an artificially high weight in, similar to the M50e30 swap weight deal.  The Board minutes on it are hard to understand (audio).  Mike started out saying that he wanted to put it at 500 playing with the but the Board never really discussed playing with the weight, just that it should be a platform swap.  This is one of those deals that lends credence to having a common swap VPI table.  If you really have an issue with it please contact Mike.  As for the car, it seems to be just another fast car at 500 points.  Both 944s were fast at Road Atlanta but neither finished without major issue. Cone Crushers burned.   

It just seems obvious to me that if the feeling is that a 944 with an S2 motor should be 500 points then make that the VPI value for that combination and have all the cars using that engine take the value of the platform swap, very straightforward and no reason to mess with the swap calculator/weights at all. Thanks for the explanation though. 

Edited by ABR-Glen
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3 hours ago, Jer said:

Ok back.  Here is the deal.  Do not shoot the messenger.  Mike decided that the 944 should be a 500 point car so he put an artificially high weight in, similar to the M50e30 swap weight deal.  The Board minutes on it are hard to understand (audio).  Mike started out saying that he wanted to put it at 500 playing with the but the Board never really discussed playing with the weight, just that it should be a platform swap.  This is one of those deals that lends credence to having a common swap VPI table.  If you really have an issue with it please contact Mike.  As for the car, it seems to be just another fast car at 500 points.  Both 944s were fast at Road Atlanta but neither finished without major issue. Cone Crushers burned.   

Just a couple more facts to consider:

3rd and 9th FTD's at Road Atlanta without either car even running 1/3 of the race.

In addition to being "just another fast car at 500 points," the Swapped 944 also has the fuel capacity to run at that pace all day long without conserving to get full 2 hour stints.

A great 500 point swapped car to be running with all these things going for it. Hmmm, wonder if my buddy will sell the '84 he's had sitting around?

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This idea that the car's potential is not important until it finishes races is a little bit crazy if you ask me. Call me a radical but it seems like the only car that didn't get the benefit of having to prove itself first was the Thunderbird; every other car appears to literally get a free pass until it podiums enough times to raise some hackles.

 

And before a bunch of you jump in and start shouting about teamwork, strategy, drivers, etc., let me remind everyone that it's Champcar's job to put an appropriate value on the car, and the team's job to do the rest. 

 

 

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Mr. Radical,

 

I would like to reiterate and modify a saying,

 

If you try to design something that is idiot racer proof, the universe will design a better idiot racer.

 

Looking to build a better car, I just stepped back, skipped a race, and spent all weekend volunteering, chatting with staff, other racers, and helping when someone wanted a hand banging on their car, my conclusion:

Staff is awesome, my fellow racers are awesome, the task is simple, read the rules as presented and get to building, not to over analyze all the inequalities of the the world nor how to fix or modify the rule book as the task will be never ending. This is supposed to be fun.

 

BTW

Had a great time even though I turned little more then 2 laps in practice, there were plenty more opportunities available, the decision was mine, not a broken car;)

 

Might just do the same @ Daytona...

 

Less bickering, more building!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Team Infiniti
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On 1/15/2019 at 12:13 PM, Racer7x said:

 

Put money on it visceral and cone crushers will still be running their S2 3 liter motors at road atlanta in 3 weeks with no penalty laps...

 

 

 

Then there should be an asterisk in the platform swap rule put in immediately that reflects this deviation for the 944 so everyone coming into the series looking to build a new car or a 944 will know this and it is not kept as another secret handshake deal for a select few teams...

 

 

Edited by Racer7x
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With all Do respects why does this car bring such a crazy reaction? 

 

I remember these car car when they were new. I will share a secret with you. They we horrid new. And expensive. If someone wants to spend the money let them. Yes they have a big fuel tank but the reliability is comical. Just because it is From Stuttgart it still has no special connotation. It is a dung bucket. They burn like a Lamborghini, break like a British sports car, the electricals are almost as bad as British cars and they are not proticularly light. It did not do well racing when new with Porsche Techicians working on it. There is a reason they stopped making them. They are not very good and never were.

 

If a team wants to have a go at it more power to them. Think of it as an Alfa or Lancia and enjoy the results. If a team can make it work admire the talent. 

 

 

It has one redeeming features for those that care.  It has a Porsche badge. 

 

Besides.....How many races have they won? 

 

3 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Just a couple more facts to consider:

3rd and 9th FTD's at Road Atlanta without either car even running 1/3 of the race.

In addition to being "just another fast car at 500 points," the Swapped 944 also has the fuel capacity to run at that pace all day long without conserving to get full 2 hour stints.

A great 500 point swapped car to be running with all these things going for it. Hmmm, wonder if my buddy will sell the '84 he's had sitting around?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cam Benty
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@Cam Benty  I couldn't decide whether to put a like or a laugh next to your post. Come to think of it, that pretty much described my friends 84. LOL. OK you've convinced me to skip that idea. LOL 

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Certain cars bring odd reactions. Not sure why.  I agree with Glen above, if it's a 500 point car, change the VPI.  I will bring it up. 

 

Did anyone look at the lap times of the various marquees at Road Atlanta?  Just curious. 

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This isn't about laptimes or any of that stuff.

 

It's about applying the existing rules equally across the board.

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34 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

This isn't about laptimes or any of that stuff.

 

It's about applying the existing rules equally across the board.

No I hear you and you are right.  

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Another point of contention concerning the 944 S2 500pt engine swap...

 

The going price currently on ebay for 944 S2 engines is almost $5K...

 

Does the $1,500 engine swap rule also not apply to the 944 teams?

 

 

Edited by Racer7x
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1 hour ago, Jer said:

Certain cars bring odd reactions. Not sure why.  I agree with Glen above, if it's a 500 point car, change the VPI.  I will bring it up. 

 

Did anyone look at the lap times of the various marquees at Road Atlanta?  Just curious. 

I did notice a certain Miata much faster than the rest.  Are the rest just not up to speed?

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3 minutes ago, scottyk said:

notice a certain Miata much faster

They have removed most all the rear weight by the chopped rear as well as any safety from a rear impact. Power to weight is a huge deal and I think they also

have a late 1.8 swap which would bump the hp a fair number.

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5 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

With all Do respects why does this car bring such a crazy reaction? 

 

I remember these car car when they were new. I will share a secret with you. They we horrid new. And expensive. If someone wants to spend the money let them. Yes they have a big fuel tank but the reliability is comical. Just because it is From Stuttgart it still has no special connotation. It is a dung bucket. They burn like a Lamborghini, break like a British sports car, the electricals are almost as bad as British cars and they are not proticularly light. It did not do well racing when new with Porsche Techicians working on it. There is a reason they stopped making them. They are not very good and never were.

 

If a team wants to have a go at it more power to them. Think of it as an Alfa or Lancia and enjoy the results. If a team can make it work admire the talent. 

 

 

It has one redeeming features for those that care.  It has a Porsche badge. 

 

Besides.....How many races have they won? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cone Crushers has won a lot of races, although they are not invincible, we were faster last time we raced against them.

 

As for plumbing and wiring, in ChampCar 2019 there is no reason to have a single inch of Porsche plumbing or wiring in the car. If I were building one it sure wouldn’t.

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7 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Mr. Radical,

 

I would like to reiterate and modify a saying,

 

If you try to design something that is idiot racer proof, the universe will design a better idiot racer.

 

Looking to build a better car, I just stepped back, skipped a race, and spent all weekend volunteering, chatting with staff, other racers, and helping when someone wanted a hand banging on their car, my conclusion:

Staff is awesome, my fellow racers are awesome, the task is simple, read the rules as presented and get to building, not to over analyze all the inequalities of the the world nor how to fix or modify the rule book as the task will be never ending. This is supposed to be fun.

 

BTW

Had a great time even though I turned little more then 2 laps in practice, there were plenty more opportunities available, the decision was mine, not a broken car;)

 

Might just do the same @ Daytona...

 

Less bickering, more building!

We're not talking about inequalities of the world, but inequalities of how the rules of the series are being applied by that series. To reiterate so you can be clear on this: no change in the rules, just for them to be applied the same for all.

 

I know you understand this; a bit disingenuous of you to make light of other people's legitimate concerns when I suspect you would be rather vociferous in your responses if you didn't think you were being treated fairly.

 

My experience in over thirty years of racing (building, racing, crewing, etc) is that people want to have equal rules. Not having the opportunity to be treated equally tends to take the fun out, which usually leads to the ones not having fun going elsewhere to find the fun that is supposed to be there.

 

 

Edited by mender
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6 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

With all Do respects why does this car bring such a crazy reaction? 

It's bringing the same reaction as the other cars that appear to be exempt from Champcar's own rules. 

 

Personally, I don't care if it caught on fire every time you started it because of oil leaks and bad wiring from the factory or that the wheels come off every 45 minutes or the body needs reinforcing to keep the rest of the car from falling apart, the rules that are in place to equalize the performance potential of cars need to be applied equally across the board. 

Edited by mender
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You've made your point repeatedly.  I think people are more interested in making sure outliers aren't running away with the series.  I mean we massage the stock cars using a VPI table.  We will likely do the same thing with common swaps starting next year, eliminating the perceived notion that all things need to be treated the same.  They aren't today, the VPI table is chock full of different values than you would expect if you just use objective factors like HP and weight.  

 

Out of curiosity, is 2016 really the last time you ran with us?  

Edited by Jer
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1 minute ago, Jer said:

You've made your point repeatedly.  I think people are more interested in making sure outliers aren't running away with the series.  

 

Out of curiosity, is 2016 really the last time you ran with us?  

No, I'd have to say that most of the people responding here are more interested in Champcar not generating outliers by messing with their own rules.

 

It's not me or the others who want Champcar to apply their rules consistently that are the problem here, nor does my participation in non-existent races in the PNW have any bearing on whether Champcar is applying their rules consistently.

 

I'm disappointed that you're resorting to the weak "what was your last race" ploy that I've seen so many times when people run out of legitimate arguments to support their "position"; I expect better from you, Jer.

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4 minutes ago, mender said:

 

I'm disappointed that you're resorting to the weak "what was your last race" ploy that I've seen so many times when people run out of legitimate arguments to support their "position"; I expect better from you, Jer.

 

I can’t and won’t speak for Jerry, but I would say the point would be if you would come out to a race and see what is going on you might have a different perspective on all of this. 

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8 minutes ago, Burningham said:

 

I can’t and won’t speak for Jerry, but I would say the point would be if you would come out to a race and see what is going on you might have a different perspective on all of this. 

In that light, if that's what Jer was meaning then I apologize. I have seen that phrase used many times by others in an attempt to imply that what I'm saying isn't pertinent.

 

Yet if I were to follow the advice of someone who was at the very latest race weekend , i.e. "the task is simple, read the rules as presented and get to building" I think I would have the same perspective if I found out that Champcar is not applying their rules equally to all cars.

 

It's Champcar's perogative to change the rules each year as they see fit to get the result that they want, but it shouldn't take a lawyer with internal connections to find out how those rules are being applied that year. When the rules get published, everyone including Champcar needs to go by the rules.

Edited by mender
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