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Bill Strong

2019 Official Road America Spring Double 8-Hour Enduros

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On 3/29/2019 at 12:03 PM, scottyk said:

That car is not even closely built to our rules. We have rules and cars are supposed to fall into those rules. 

 

The rules for EC are that there are no rules other than tire compound, which was not always a rule anyway. If they have 180TW tires and the car passes safety tech I see no issue at all. 

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35 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

The rules for EC are that there are no rules other than tire compound, which was not always a rule anyway. If they have 180TW tires and the car passes safety tech I see no issue at all. 

To avoid misinterpretations, I’ve included the actual rules. 

 

2.2. VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY – DEFINITION OF AN EXCEPTION CLASS (“EC”) CAR
2.2.1. The Exception Class or “EC” car class is open to “ChampCar compatible” cars that wish to race with ChampCar but exceed the 1,000 point limit, or any team not wishing to compete for the overall win.
2.2.2. ChampCar reserves the right to deny entry to any EC car if ChampCar determines the car to be excessively superior in power, braking, top speed or other factors that ChampCar feels would be unsafe or disruptive to any event.
2.2.3. EC cars shall not be eligible for prize monies or awards issued by ChampCar. However, when more than five (5) EC cars are entered in any one event, ChampCar may award separate EC class trophies.
2.2.4. EC vehicles must meet all ChampCar rules and regulations for vehicle eligibility.

Edited by Racer28173

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14 minutes ago, Racer28173 said:

To avoid misinterpretations, I’ve included the actual rules. 

 

2.2. VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY – DEFINITION OF AN EXCEPTION CLASS (“EC”) CAR
2.2.1. The Exception Class or “EC” car class is open to “ChampCar compatible” cars that wish to race with ChampCar but exceed the 1,000 point limit, or any team not wishing to compete for the overall win.
2.2.2. ChampCar reserves the right to deny entry to any EC car if ChampCar determines the car to be excessively superior in power, braking, top speed or other factors that ChampCar feels would be unsafe or disruptive to any event.
2.2.3. EC cars shall not be eligible for prize monies or awards issued by ChampCar. However, when more than five (5) EC cars are entered in any one event, ChampCar may award separate EC class trophies.
2.2.4. EC vehicles must meet all ChampCar rules and regulations for vehicle eligibility.

 

2.2.4. EC vehicles must meet all ChampCar rules and regulations for vehicle eligibility.

 

I believe this is only referring to Champcar safety tech as no other rules really apply to EC.

 

As the rules state the series can deny entry for pretty much any reason if they think the EC car could be unsafe or disruptive etc. 

 

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2 hours ago, Racer28173 said:

I’ve never missed a drivers meeting!

 

 I was asking because it was looking like we wouldn’t have a functioning speedometer and I wanted to work out the RPMs ahead of time.  As it turns out, it looks like it might be functional after all, so we won’t be doing a lot of math between the drivers meeting and the race. Whew!

  Most of the time the race directors ,knowing most do not have speedometer's , will say a gear and rpm with the speed limit.  

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The last however many years it has been 25mph, followed by the phrase, or 2500 rpm in 2nd gear.  I know when we were gunning people the last 2 fall events 25mph was the cut off.  2 years ago they were really strict on it too as there were a lot of folks going 35-40 mph at the beginning of the event.

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Ok we had a brief discussion about the faster cars.  They will get a stern lecture about driving safely AND they have to run 180 TW.  As a Board we will keep an eye on this.  We don't want two separate races being run so this will not be allowed to become "a thing".

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11 hours ago, Jer said:

Ok we had a brief discussion about the faster cars.  They will get a stern lecture about driving safely AND they have to run 180 TW.  As a Board we will keep an eye on this.  We don't want two separate races being run so this will not be allowed to become "a thing".

It’s become “a thing” by letting it race. No carbon fiber allowed right?

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1 hour ago, scottyk said:

It’s become “a thing” by letting it race. No carbon fiber allowed right?

Not going to fight you on this.  Mike made the decision, and we will see how it goes.  I have no idea if they have carbon fiber and I'm not a rules jockey regarding whether that's allowed on EC cars or not.  Mike says with 180 TW tires he does not expect them to be much faster than the top cars in Champ.  I disagree with this statement but we will see.  If they race aggressively they will be yanked off the track. 

Edited by Jer

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

Not going to fight you on this.  Mike made the decision, and we will see how it goes.  I have no idea if they have carbon fiber and I'm not a rules jockey regarding whether that's allowed on EC cars or not.  Mike says with 180 TW tires he does not expect them to be much faster than the top cars in Champ.  I disagree with this statement but we will see.  If they race aggressively they will be yanked off the track. 

OOOF, not fighting with you here, but the statement that 180TW will slow down 400+ HP on a straight that is almost a mile long is kinda odd to me as I am not sure that will hinder acceleration and top speeds which I think that is what most of us are worried about.  Thanks for voicing your opinion.

 

We will be watching from the pit marshal side.  I'll make sure we get the radar gun out so we can see just how fast they can go!

 

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5 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

OOOF, not fighting with you here, but the statement that 180TW will slow down 400+ HP on a straight that is almost a mile long is kinda odd to me as I am not sure that will hinder acceleration and top speeds which I think that is what most of us are worried about.  Thanks for voicing your opinion.

 

We will be watching from the pit marshal side.  I'll make sure we get the radar gun out so we can see just how fast they can go!

 

Yes as stated, I agree with you.  I'll be curious as well.  I suggested that if this became a problem, that we can limit lap times of non-conforming (EC) cars at 5% better than the Champ track record.  I think it got lost in the conversation on the call last night, but I can re-propose if this gets to be an issue.  For example, at Road America our best lap is 2:45 I believe.  Any lap faster than 2:37 would get an immediate black flag and removal from the track.  Something like that.  Another Board member said "Well they will just slow down" to which I replied "and then it would be safe".  I will bring it up again after RA if we have an issue. 

Edited by Jer

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Please do .

I have been told that this car is nowhere near 400 + hp and owner offered up Dyno sheet to prove it .

 

 

Jer snuck in ,the please do reference was for the radar gun check 

Edited by Ray Franck
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Just now, Ray Franck said:

Please do .

I have been told that this car is nowhere near 400 + hp and owner offered up Dyno sheet to prove it .

The issue, which is valid, is we don't want, say, 8 of these cars showing up and having their own little race within a race.  That could get to be dangerous and take a lot of the fun out of the series for Champ people.   

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1 minute ago, Jer said:

Yes as stated, I agree with you.  I'll be curious as well.  I suggested that if this became a problem, that we can lap times of non-conforming (EC) cars at 5% better than the Champ track record.  I think it got lost in the conversation on the call last night, but I can re-propose if this gets to be an issue.  For example, at Road America our best lap is 2:45 I believe.  Any lap faster than 2:37 would get an immediate black flag and removal from the track.  Something like that.  Another Board member said (Well they will just slow down" to which I replied "and then it would be safe again".  I will bring it up again after RA if we have an issue. 

The time idea is an interesting one, I think I could actually get behind that.  Instead of going off of the fastest time though could you find a way to go off of average of say the top 10 times at an event?  I just say this as the 2:45 is still 5-7 seconds faster than the majority of the field at that event, and that is just the times of the fast cars.  Interesting thing to ponder for sure. 

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3 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

Please do .

I have been told that this car is nowhere near 400 + hp and owner offered up Dyno sheet to prove it .

If that's what they told you, I have no reason to doubt you on that.  We are just going off of what seems to be first hand knowledge from a team that has raced with them in another series and knows the car from that.  If they have de-tuned it to a more reasonable level of HP that's a start.

 

See you in the tech shed!

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3 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

The time idea is an interesting one, I think I could actually get behind that.  Instead of going off of the fastest time though could you find a way to go off of average of say the top 10 times at an event?  I just say this as the 2:45 is still 5-7 seconds faster than the majority of the field at that event, and that is just the times of the fast cars.  Interesting thing to ponder for sure. 

Just trying to make enforcement easy.  If we have to do a bunch of math at each track, and which times do we use, the fastest 10 laps from the last ten races, etc, current race is not usable because at the start it hasn't been run yet, etc then this becomes a lot of work.  Grab track record and use it.  That's easy.  Tell the teams in question in advance.  

 

Again, I don't want to create a solution for a problem that doesn't exist yet.  Lets see how things go.  

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I just can’t get my head around why this car is allowed to race with us. This is a poor decision and poor decisions in racing usually end badly.

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44 minutes ago, Jer said:

Yes as stated, I agree with you.  I'll be curious as well.  I suggested that if this became a problem, that we can lap times of non-conforming (EC) cars at 5% better than the Champ track record.  I think it got lost in the conversation on the call last night, but I can re-propose if this gets to be an issue.  For example, at Road America our best lap is 2:45 I believe.  Any lap faster than 2:37 would get an immediate black flag and removal from the track.  Something like that.  Another Board member said "Well they will just slow down" to which I replied "and then it would be safe".  I will bring it up again after RA if we have an issue. 

Weren't you driving Bio in 2012 when it ran 2:49 and the rest of the field was 2:57+ (~5% difference)? 

If you plot out the fastest laps from most races you will see that the top "legal" cars are already outliers from the trend

 

If lap time differential is really a safety concern, you are going to have to take a bigger picture approach than just denying entry to a few EC cars, how often does somebody limp a broken car around the track at a pace that's 5% or more slower?

 

I felt like this horse left the barn back in the days when the USS Enterprise was running regularly in EC class (at events Chisek was in charge of, BTW) I don't see this as anything new. Is there cause to be concerned/cautious, absolutely, but just lay down the expectations for what EC class is and isn't for them if they are new.

 

What next, we have to ban Randy or Wyatt from driving because they might go too fast?

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

The issue, which is valid, is we don't want, say, 8 of these cars showing up and having their own little race within a race.  That could get to be dangerous and take a lot of the fun out of the series for Champ people.   

Thanks Jer. 

This is exactly what the issue is and thank you for looking past this lone  example.   If we become a cheap way for the big dogs to get hours of test time and start racingveach other it could get stupid in a hurry.  

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19 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Weren't you driving Bio in 2012 when it ran 2:49 and the rest of the field was 2:57+ (~5% difference)? 

If you plot out the fastest laps from most races you will see that the top "legal" cars are already outliers from the trend

 

If lap time differential is really a safety concern, you are going to have to take a bigger picture approach than just denying entry to a few EC cars, how often does somebody limp a broken car around the track at a pace that's 5% or more slower?

 

I felt like this horse left the barn back in the days when the USS Enterprise was running regularly in EC class (at events Chisek was in charge of, BTW) I don't see this as anything new. Is there cause to be concerned/cautious, absolutely, but just lay down the expectations for what EC class is and isn't for them if they are new.

 

What next, we have to ban Randy or Wyatt from driving because they might go too fast?

No that was Kevin Tulay.  First time I ever drove Bio was in 2014.  

 

I would recommend the best classed times, excluding EC as a starting point.  

 

The whole idea is to try to not have huge differentials above the field.  Broken cars are another issue altogether.  

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I believe someone went to Mike and asked if they could run, demonstrated they weren't as fast as thought (true or not I don't know), Mike saw an under-subscribed date and agreed.  I would not want this car on the track at the Glen with 110 cars already in the field and pinch points.  The sky is not yet falling so lets see what happens.  

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To be clear, we have no problem running on track with that Cayman.  All of our drivers have a lot of experience and it will be no problem for us.  The owner of the car is a good guy and an experienced racer.  I'm sure that he will be very smart about the way that he races it.  I just question WHY someone would want to run such a car with this series.  I am all for nice cars coming to run with ChampCar.  Just bring cars that are appropriate for the competition.

 

To give you an idea of the speed, here's my video from last year in a similar 3.8 liter Cayman that was built for PWC GTS.  Sorry for the crappy white balance.  Speed at the end of the front straight was 156 mph.  Fast lap in practice was 2:19, just to see if I could do it.  I had no other cars in my class that weekend.  So, this was a leisurely cruise around RA.  This is on Hoosier A7 tires.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

To be clear, we have no problem running on track with that Cayman.  All of our drivers have a lot of experience and it will be no problem for us.  The owner of the car is a good guy and an experienced racer.  I'm sure that he will be very smart about the way that he races it.  I just question WHY someone would want to run such a car with this series.  I am all for nice cars coming to run with ChampCar.  Just bring cars that are appropriate for the competition.

 

To give you an idea of the speed, here's my video from last year in a similar 3.8 liter Cayman that was built for PWC GTS.  Sorry for the crappy white balance.  Speed at the end of the front straight was 156 mph.  Fast lap in practice was 2:19, just to see if I could do it.  I had no other cars in my class that weekend.  So, this was a leisurely cruise around RA.  This is on Hoosier A7 tires.

 

 

I believe he is using the weekend as a test (not for this car) but for his upcoming PWC race he has at RA. 

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One question to everyone on here then I’ll quit with the beating. By letting this car run Who does it benefit, the one team or the entire field?

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8 minutes ago, scottyk said:

One question to everyone on here then I’ll quit with the beating. By letting this car run Who does it benefit, the one team or the entire field?

I assume the theory is that it benefits all of us because it covers a little more of the costs of the race.  The entry list doesn’t list classes so it is impossible to tell how many of the cars that have already paid are running in EC.  Those guys clearly get screwed if a 150+ mph car shows up because they will have laughable performance in comparison and will just be racing for 2nd place. If a few of those guys don’t come back because they feel like they brought a knife to a gunfight, then no one wins because we will have less cars at the next race. 

 

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