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4 minutes ago, Bremsen said:

 

Since when does hardware take points?  If I'm now taking points for a eccentric bolt/washer I yanked out of a parts car I hope you boys enjoy this series.....this will be my last season.

 

No points if it is OEM to your car, the E30 solution is an add on with aftermarket parts. You can still slot your mounts to get adjustment on the E30 its just more difficult to make adjustments.

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5 minutes ago, Bremsen said:

 

Since when does hardware take points?  If I'm now taking points for a eccentric bolt/washer I yanked out of a parts car I hope you boys enjoy this series.....this will be my last season.

 

General purpose fasteners generally do not take points if used as general purpose fasteners, but if they are a camber kit they may fall under:

 

• Camber / caster adjustable plates / apparatus: o After market (pair): 20 pts front, 20 pts rear o Homemade (pair) 5 pts front, 5 pts rear o Stock components (strut towers, suspension arms, sub-frames) re-drilled/slotted for adjustment: 0 pts

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Just now, Bremsen said:

 

Since when does hardware take points?  If I'm taking points for a eccentric bolt/washer I yanked out of a parts car I hope you boys enjoy this series.....this will be my last season.

There are a couple different kits out there... I don’t know exactly what is involved. I think you need some weld on brackets as well. Take a look at this one:

https://store.garagistic.com/garagistic-eccentric-hardware?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInJbS5ICj4AIVCLnACh02fwnfEAQYBSABEgJfXfD_BwE

 

Bottom line: it is a kit of stuff which is used to adjust rear camber and toe and it didn’t come with the car from the factory. Adds points. QED. 

 

I was using it as an example of tech being quite thorough (enough to catch engine mounts) because these items are easy to overlook if you aren’t specifically looking for them.

 

 

I don’t know anything about what is on your car. 

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The Z31 rear suspension setup is very similar to the E30, except we don't have any aftermarket support (no "kits" available).  From the factory it has an eccentric bolt/cage on one side of the STA for toe adjustment.  I cut the "cages" and grabbed the bolt/washer off a spare subframe and then welded it to our subframe to add the adjustment to the camber side.  It allows me to reduce rear camber by about .5*.  I have always included the cages in my "material" costs, but I don't claim the bolt since hardware has always been open.

Edited by Bremsen
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2 hours ago, Bremsen said:

The Z31 rear suspension setup is very similar to the E30, except we don't have any aftermarket support (no "kits" available).  From the factory it has an eccentric bolt/cage on one side of the STA for toe adjustment.  I cut the "cages" and grabbed the bolt/washer off a spare subframe and then welded it to our subframe to add the adjustment to the camber side.  It allows me to reduce rear camber by about .5*.  I have always included the cages in my "material" costs, but I don't claim the bolt since hardware has always been open.

Sounds like 5 points to me. Homemade camber apparatus; rear pair. 

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7 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

The shock rules need addressing in my opinion. One way or the other.

 

I get the rabbit holes, and the dead horse, and all that jazz. I agree with most of the points made with adjustable shocks and not wanting to go down that slippery slope but sit back and look at the rules and what they are saying here. I emailed tech last year regarding this and was told it is within the rules to have shocks custom valved and even to have multiple sets of shocks valved differently, and the re-valve doesn't count against the 2x rule. 

 

Wait, You just said it was allowed to have the shock opened, valved and sealed....how is this ANY different than buying an adjustable shock under the 2x, setting it, and welding it in place so it is not readily adjusted during the race?

 

I have customized my shock, it can not be readily adjusted, and it is under the 2x rule 100%. VPI increase of 25pts each shock

Team B has customized their shock, it can not be readily adjusted and it is over the 2x rule with the adjustment costs. VPI increase 0pts.

 

Makes 100% sense to me.

 

You dont want adjustable shocks ran 100% ok with that, but then the shock can not be rebuilt, re-valved, or molested in any way.(how do you enforce that?) If that is not the case you need to allow teams to buy an adjustable shock that is under the 2X rule set them and seal them.

 

You can kill me for my opinion now. 😃

 

Its a cost limiting measure, that actually works.

 

In theory, you are correct.  Having multiple "non adjustable" shocks adjusted adds up quickly, 

In reality, there are just not that many "non adjustable" shocks one can purchase, then have re valved, for our cars.

In reality, there is no way to enforce adjustment of non-adjustable shocks.  Champcar isnt going the direction of dynoing shocks after races.

In reality, 95% of champcar falls into one of these categories:

1. Whats a adjustable shock, and can I buy that at Pep-Boys?

2. Much to lazy to change shocks more than once

3. Not willing to spend the money or time on multiple sets of shocks and having them revalved

4. Doesnt have the knowledge to effectively improve the cars performance even if they have the time and money to do #3

 

Therefore, enforcing a ban of "adjuster hardware" on shocks effectively limits the series to lower-budget shocks.  Sure, there are probably teams who spend the money to adjust "non adjustables", but they are rare (just like the number of teams who can effectively adjust "adjustables")

 

If you allow adjustables, you open up a whole world of comparatively nicer shocks that teams can use.  I can tell ya, id find a way to get some 8611's under my car (within 2x), if not something even nicer.

 

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58 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Doesnt have the knowledge to effectively improve the cars performance even if they have the time and money to do #3

 

If they have the money, they could hire the knowledge if the adjustables were legal   

 

The other group you didn't include are the teams that have been down the adjustable shock spending river in other series and really just want to have a good time with a a less sophisticated car.     The more adjustments you have the more ways you can screw up.  

 

 

Edited by JDChristianson
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7 hours ago, enginerd said:

 

I was using it as an example of tech being quite thorough (enough to catch engine mounts) because these items are easy to overlook if you aren’t specifically looking for them.

 

 

Interesting, I saw an E30 at Gingerman with obviously aftermarket rear control arms that wasn't taking the appropriate points for them. Seems like an eccentric bolt on a factory part would get through more often than not by comparison.

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10 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 

Interesting, I saw an E30 at Gingerman with obviously aftermarket rear control arms that wasn't taking the appropriate points for them. Seems like an eccentric bolt on a factory part would get through more often than not by comparison.

Did they claim them? 

Tech will be the first to tell you that it's not what they find in Tech, but what they find in impound. Fail to claim a part on your Tech Sheet at your own peril...

 

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7 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

 

Interesting, I saw an E30 at Gingerman with obviously aftermarket rear control arms that wasn't taking the appropriate points for them. Seems like an eccentric bolt on a factory part would get through more often than not by comparison.

Maybe those parts went on after it had been through annual tech and the team just forgot they put them on............

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10 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

Its a cost limiting measure, that actually works.

 

In theory, you are correct.  Having multiple "non adjustable" shocks adjusted adds up quickly, 

In reality, there are just not that many "non adjustable" shocks one can purchase, then have re valved, for our cars.

In reality, there is no way to enforce adjustment of non-adjustable shocks.  Champcar isnt going the direction of dynoing shocks after races.

In reality, 95% of champcar falls into one of these categories:

1. Whats a adjustable shock, and can I buy that at Pep-Boys?

2. Much to lazy to change shocks more than once

3. Not willing to spend the money or time on multiple sets of shocks and having them revalved

4. Doesnt have the knowledge to effectively improve the cars performance even if they have the time and money to do #3

 

Therefore, enforcing a ban of "adjuster hardware" on shocks effectively limits the series to lower-budget shocks.  Sure, there are probably teams who spend the money to adjust "non adjustables", but they are rare (just like the number of teams who can effectively adjust "adjustables")

 

If you allow adjustables, you open up a whole world of comparatively nicer shocks that teams can use.  I can tell ya, id find a way to get some 8611's under my car (within 2x), if not something even nicer.

 

 

I don't understand why anyone would do this sport if they didn't want to tweak and screw with every part of the car. If someone just wanted to "race" there are more homogenized ways to do it that are a lot cheaper. 

 

Im going to get crushed on points on my suspension, and I'm still going to thoroughly enjoy figuring out the adjustable shocks.

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9 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

 

I don't understand why anyone would do this sport if they didn't want to tweak and screw with every part of the car. If someone just wanted to "race" there are more homogenized ways to do it that are a lot cheaper. 

 

Im going to get crushed on points on my suspension, and I'm still going to thoroughly enjoy figuring out the adjustable shocks.

 

We have members who want to race but don't want to deal with a parade during the race (Citrus)

We have members who what to race but cant afford to compete at a higher $ level or don't want to be on track with that faster hardware (WRL, AER)

We have members who don't really care, but want to race on the best tracks.  Guess who has the best rack selection?

We have members who don't have time to tweak and screw on every part of the car, with work, family, or other responsibilities.

 

Even for people like me who do like to tweak, the no-adjustables rule keeps costs down.  When the rule was "OE Only", I was blowing shocks every other race on my cut springs. 

 

When the rule changed to 2x, I was able to purchase a set of (used) bilsteins and I have not had to touch them since.  If I was a higher-budget team, I would have sent them off to get valved or tweaked... I called to ask the price and it was more than a (used) set goes for.  

 

The bilsteins were certainly cheaper than Ohlins, Penskies, Koni 86xx, etc which were other options available at various price and customization levels

 

Its possible to be competitive without them.  ;)

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7 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Guess who has the best rack selection?

 

Hooters?

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13 hours ago, enginerd said:

Sounds like 5 points to me. Homemade camber apparatus; rear pair. 

 Or, alternatively:

o Stock components (strut towers, suspension
arms, sub-frames) re-drilled/slotted for
adjustment: 0 pts

 

Its a slotted hole in a subframe and a stock eccentric bolt.

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38 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

We have members who want to race but don't want to deal with a parade during the race (Citrus)

We have members who what to race but cant afford to compete at a higher $ level or don't want to be on track with that faster hardware (WRL, AER)

We have members who don't really care, but want to race on the best tracks.  Guess who has the best rack selection?

We have members who don't have time to tweak and screw on every part of the car, with work, family, or other responsibilities.

 

Even for people like me who do like to tweak, the no-adjustables rule keeps costs down.  When the rule was "OE Only", I was blowing shocks every other race on my cut springs. 

 

When the rule changed to 2x, I was able to purchase a set of (used) bilsteins and I have not had to touch them since.  If I was a higher-budget team, I would have sent them off to get valved or tweaked... I called to ask the price and it was more than a (used) set goes for.  

 

The bilsteins were certainly cheaper than Ohlins, Penskies, Koni 86xx, etc which were other options available at various price and customization levels

 

Its possible to be competitive without them.  ;)

m.h.o. is that the rule is way behind commoditization effects in general, and could easily be written in such a way as to limit the adjustable to a basic setup with knob/adjuster on shocks, prohibit remote reservoir setups (eliminates all the really high-end expensive stuff) and allow teams to have more latitude to play. If i have adjustables I don't need two or three complete sets to accommodate a base of track profiles. And seriously, if teams are doing that now (multiple sets) then the rule is long past broken on cost containment. 

 

It's of course possible to be competitive with something like the H&R Race / B8 setup, but for the same price I got a setup I can tweak and have fun with. Tell me where the inherent penalty/problem/cost issue is in that scenario?

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

m.h.o. is that the rule is way behind commoditization effects in general, and could easily be written in such a way as to limit the adjustable to a basic setup with knob/adjuster on shocks, prohibit remote reservoir setups (eliminates all the really high-end expensive stuff) and allow teams to have more latitude to play. If i have adjustables I don't need two or three complete sets to accommodate a base of track profiles. And seriously, if teams are doing that now (multiple sets) then the rule is long past broken on cost containment. 

 

It's of course possible to be competitive with something like the H&R Race / B8 setup, but for the same price I got a setup I can tweak and have fun with. Tell me where the inherent penalty/problem/cost issue is in that scenario?

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure how many teams have different setups for the different tracks- I know that we don't do that and find that it really isn't necessary.  I would think it's probably less than 5% of the teams that change their setups for each race.  I know that you had difficulty finding the billy's for your car and went with the adjustable route.  But the rule is fair as there can be an advantage with adjustable shocks.  

 

Some cars can benefit with adjustable shocks, but it really isn't about cost control as it is about advantages.  When better shocks could be used with additional value added to the car, the cost of racing went down for teams across the board as these race type shocks would last much longer than a race or two.

 

The H&R Race / B8 setup is extremely competitive as plenty of e30's have made the podium using this setup.  But it has nothing to do with the actual cost of the adjustables to you, but more about the potential advantage.  Run your adjustables if you want, but in the end you just made a very competitive car not so competitive due to the points occurred with the setup you are running. 

 

The reality is also that not every race has a practice day before hand, so unless you really know what you are doing with suspension setup and can make tweaks during a race, you are probably hurting the car setup when racing at different tracks.

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25 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

m.h.o. is that the rule is way behind commoditization effects in general, and could easily be written in such a way as to limit the adjustable to a basic setup with knob/adjuster on shocks, prohibit remote reservoir setups (eliminates all the really high-end expensive stuff) and allow teams to have more latitude to play. If i have adjustables I don't need two or three complete sets to accommodate a base of track profiles. And seriously, if teams are doing that now (multiple sets) then the rule is long past broken on cost containment. 

 

It's of course possible to be competitive with something like the H&R Race / B8 setup, but for the same price I got a setup I can tweak and have fun with. Tell me where the inherent penalty/problem/cost issue is in that scenario?

 

 

 

 

Glen go ahead and write a petition. The "problem" isn't necessarily that one way is better/cheaper than the other, but one is already established, so in order to get it changed you would have to be solving a problem, not just making it "better", i.e. the current rule is "good enough".

 

While basic adjustable shocks may not cost that much more than non-adjustable, consider how many people would go out and spend money on new adjustable shocks to replace their current non-adjustable ones. That's tens of thousands of dollars out of the collective racing budget that the series won't be making, will it bring in enough new teams or keep teams from leaving to make that up?

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8 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Glen go ahead and write a petition. The "problem" isn't necessarily that one way is better/cheaper than the other, but one is already established, so in order to get it changed you would have to be solving a problem, not just making it "better", i.e. the current rule is "good enough".

 

While basic adjustable shocks may not cost that much more than non-adjustable, consider how many people would go out and spend money on new adjustable shocks to replace their current non-adjustable ones. That's tens of thousands of dollars out of the collective racing budget that the series won't be making, will it bring in enough new teams or keep teams from leaving to make that up?

 

13 minutes ago, chip said:

I'm not sure how many teams have different setups for the different tracks- I know that we don't do that and find that it really isn't necessary.  I would think it's probably less than 5% of the teams that change their setups for each race.  I know that you had difficulty finding the billy's for your car and went with the adjustable route.  But the rule is fair as there can be an advantage with adjustable shocks.  

 

Some cars can benefit with adjustable shocks, but it really isn't about cost control as it is about advantages.  When better shocks could be used with additional value added to the car, the cost of racing went down for teams across the board as these race type shocks would last much longer than a race or two.

 

The H&R Race / B8 setup is extremely competitive as plenty of e30's have made the podium using this setup.  But it has nothing to do with the actual cost of the adjustables to you, but more about the potential advantage.  Run your adjustables if you want, but in the end you just made a very competitive car not so competitive due to the points occurred with the setup you are running. 

 

The reality is also that not every race has a practice day before hand, so unless you really know what you are doing with suspension setup and can make tweaks during a race, you are probably hurting the car setup when racing at different tracks.

 

Hear everything you are saying, and as I've mentioned before in other threads, I've way overbuilt this car for Champ. I'm cool with that and likely it will just get a different engine next winter and live in another series (assuming of course I don't ball it up this year). It's been fun for me really digging in and learing/optimizing the various systems. 

 

There are obviously specific platforms that more efficiently leverage the VPI structure and allow for the type of mods on the car that I want and still land at or below the magic number, so I'll figure that out for next year most likely.

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On 2/3/2019 at 7:32 AM, frankrehnelt said:

 

 

 

“Non OEM spec will be points. Same as aftermarket race cams.”

 

Sure about that? Just asking because when the rules were updated it didn't declare what fixed vpi are not fixed. Hoping the loopholes were "fixed fixed", and was curious if anyone ever got a list of what items do or don't have to follow the fixed vpi rules.

Edited by Black Magic

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1 hour ago, ABR-Glen said:

Glen go ahead and write a petition. The "problem" isn't necessarily that one way is better/cheaper than the other, but one is already established, so in order to get it changed you would have to be solving a problem, not just making it "better", i.e. the current rule is "good enough".

 

While basic adjustable shocks may not cost that much more than non-adjustable, consider how many people would go out and spend money on new adjustable shocks to replace their current non-adjustable ones. That's tens of thousands of dollars out of the collective racing budget that the series won't be making, will it bring in enough new teams or keep teams from leaving to make that up?

"Good enough" is a relative term.

 

The current 2X rule favours cars with expensive stock struts/shocks and always has, but the teams with those cars are more important to Champcar than the ones that don't have a decent 2X option. It may be a coincidence, but since the implementation of the type of rules that favour the heavy luxury/sport sedan cars, the look of Chumpcar fields has changed dramatically.

 

My 2X budget for my whole car: $237.96. Even if they made B8s for a Fiero, that might buy one, not four.

Edited by mender

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2 hours ago, Bremsen said:

 Or, alternatively:

o Stock components (strut towers, suspension
arms, sub-frames) re-drilled/slotted for
adjustment: 0 pts

 

Its a slotted hole in a subframe and a stock eccentric bolt.

Argue your case in annual tech. You said that you took parts off of a separate car to make your camber adjustment apparatus, and that’s 5 points. 

 

You can get around it (now that the ‘repurposed parts are evaluated as the new fixed point parts’ rule is once again no longer in the rulebook) by using metal cut out of your own car to make the brackets, but you will need to use standard bolts (or find eccentric bolts somewhere else on your car and take them [ha ha]). You can probably get that adjustability by using large holes and shimming the bolt instead of using an eccentric bolt. 

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14 minutes ago, mender said:

"Good enough" is a relative term.

 

The current 2X rule favours cars with expensive stock struts/shocks and always has, but the teams with those cars are more important to Champcar than the ones that don't have a decent 2X option. It may be a coincidence, but since the implementation of the type of rules that favour the heavy luxury/sport sedan cars, the look of Chumpcar fields has changed dramatically.

 

A set of 4 B8s for $237.96? Even if they made them for a Fiero, that might buy one, not four.


 

 

Conversely, well supported, low cost cars get cheaper, high quality upgrades readily available.

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31 minutes ago, mender said:

"Good enough" is a relative term.

 

The current 2X rule favours cars with expensive stock struts/shocks and always has, but the teams with those cars are more important to Champcar than the ones that don't have a decent 2X option. It may be a coincidence, but since the implementation of the type of rules that favour the heavy luxury/sport sedan cars, the look of Chumpcar fields has changed dramatically.

 

My 2X budget for my whole car: $237.96. Even if they made B8s for a Fiero, that might buy one, not four.

So we should care about not having good replacement shocks for a car that starts at 150 when the car run the adjustables with no problem due to the low starting VPI?

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36 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Argue your case in annual tech. You said that you took parts off of a separate car to make your camber adjustment apparatus, and that’s 5 points. 

 

You can get around it (now that the ‘repurposed parts are evaluated as the new fixed point parts’ rule is once again no longer in the rulebook) by using metal cut out of your own car to make the brackets, but you will need to use standard bolts (or find eccentric bolts somewhere else on your car and take them [ha ha]). You can probably get that adjustability by using large holes and shimming the bolt instead of using an eccentric bolt. 

 

image.png.ae4990337f6f2ac6b16f26372cd47552.png

 

Doesnt say anything about being "standard".  My car has lots of metric hardware on it.  

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13 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

image.png.ae4990337f6f2ac6b16f26372cd47552.png

 

Doesnt say anything about being "standard".  My car has lots of metric hardware on it.  

Ha ha ha

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