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Road Atlanta - It was a hot one on a cold day

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7 hours ago, Huggy said:

We had a lot to look forward to this event.

 

The pressure was on coming off of last years finish, but there are always a gaggle of fast cars who show up for road atlanta.  This year was no different, and we won by surviving the attrition instead of outright speed.

 

The car actually made it through the race with zero contact that I am aware of, which is a challenge at road atlanta with 80 cars.

 

The pro pits are awesome, I hope we get to use them again.  

 

Thanks to Champcar for a fun weekend, as always.  See some of you in 3 weeks at VIR

 

Enjoyed chatting with you too.  Hope you learned all you wanted, but as discussed the cheaty bits are between you and I only 🤣

 

 

1569091241_file-3(1).thumb.jpeg.8d4bc1e1cba34968ef46a944cc46b385.jpeg

EDIT:  OH yeah, thanks to @sgtskid for the race winning trunklid, purchased and installed the day of the race.

 

 

Glad to see (parts of) my car living on.  ;)

20190209_221055.jpg

Edited by sgtskid

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7 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

The pressure was on coming off of last years finish, but there are always a gaggle of fast cars who show up for road atlanta.  This year was no different, and we won by surviving the attrition instead of outright speed.

 

 

 

Hey Chris, congrats on the hard fought overall win.

 

Good luck at Vir S next month and hope to see you guys at Daytona in April.

 

Brian

 

 

Edited by Racer7x

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4 hours ago, krispykritter said:

Unsurprisingly, the amount of negative camber really killed our ability to put power to the ground out of the slower corners, like 7 and 10B, but otherwise, the car felt just stunningly planted.  We're really happy with the handling on the new wheels and tires.

 

I haven't yet had a chance to go look at the video of the encounter that left the Crowd Control Cobra in the penalty box.  I'm not completely clear on what happened, but it took them from first to seventh or ninth, but didn't involve any contact with us.

 

You need a LSD in that thing, I was coming by you in 10B on the inside and i could see smoke from you spinning up the inside tire.

 

I saw the video from our car, your driver checked up behind the safety vehicle.  Closing speed was too fast so our driver jogged around you and a Miata(?) behind you.  Safety driver called in screaming that we were 'racing' past the safety truck.   Its 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.  We accept the blame, took our lumps, and made the best of it.  Just sucks.

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1 hour ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

You need a LSD in that thing, I was coming by you in 10B on the inside and i could see smoke from you spinning up the inside tire.

 

I saw the video from our car, your driver checked up behind the safety vehicle.  Closing speed was too fast so our driver jogged around you and a Miata(?) behind you.  Safety driver called in screaming that we were 'racing' past the safety truck.   Its 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.  We accept the blame, took our lumps, and made the best of it.  Just sucks.

 

Yeah, that's sucky, but we definitely appreciate your driver not using our bumper as a brake! 

 

Had a similar close call myself during practice and sometimes the only decent option is to pass to avoid causing another accident.

 

LSD would be great but is prohibitively expensive. A little less right foot helps that wheelspin issue as well! Also planning on ditching the front sway bar before Daytona. 

 

Looking forward to eventually catching that 626. We're slowly reeling it in!

 

In other news, the other cv that took us out of the race at 930 pm snapped when I tried to drive the car behind the fence today. So that was fun. 

 

Edited by krispykritter
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I don't know if this is the best place to post this, but I could not find a specific " competition" thread so here goes: I have raced with Champ/Chump for the past 7 years and just finished the RA 14 hour. Overall, the Champ Car experience, organization and competition is excellent and has shown steady improvement over the years.The cars are better/faster, as are the drivers. One continuous issue that plagues the completion is the issue of fair play. All too often we have one or two cars that are  extremely fast for their specs. It was nice to see a dyno used at AMP and Barber, but surprised that it was not at RA. I think all of us would like to have all the podium cars automatically dynoed....if it's a cost issue then it can be part of the $50 protest fee. Like NASA, it would create transparency if each vehicle registration/tech paperwork was available online. These two precedures would, in part, put an end to counter productive rumors. In spite of a great event at Road Atlanta , virtually every team whispered BS about at least one of the competitors. We can mitigate this issue at a minimal cost and restore full trust in the events and the organization.

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I agree with random dyno testing. We've seen it at Daytona, VIR, etc.. I was/am a big supporter of it. However, after watching a few cars make pulls, I realize there are ways to game the system. 

If a dyno number seems askew, then the team in question needs to document to Tech why the number is out of what would be considered "normal". If a team is taking points for bolt-ons and applying the "open" items such as removal of emissions/smog equipment, cold air intake, exhaust after the header(s), tuning/aftermarket ECM then it's not unreasonable to see numbers in excess of what one might expect. 

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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

I agree with random dyno testing. We've seen it at Daytona, VIR, etc.. I was/am a big supporter of it. However, after watching a few cars make pulls, I realize there are ways to game the system. 

If a dyno number seems askew, then the team in question needs to document to Tech why the number is out of what would be considered "normal". If a team is taking points for bolt-ons and applying the "open" items such as removal of emissions/smog equipment, cold air intake, exhaust after the header(s), tuning/aftermarket ECM then it's not unreasonable to see numbers in excess of what one might expect. 

The dyno number would at least have to match what was declared in the swap form.Also, we have such a wealth of knowledge at every race that an out of bounds number would be apparent to many. For example a 1.8 Miata motor with headers, Megasquirt, and CAI should not hit 160 rwhp on the dyno. As long as the podium cars have tech sheets available to review, along with published dyno numbers , transparency will provide for a higher level of confidence in the process. The standard answer of "they are just better drivers " is tiresome, in that virtually ever team has one or more A+ drivers to create  a fast lap basis. 

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Another wild race weekend for me. 

 

Started friday all set to drive the Prefect Racing Boxster.  During practice it seemed a bit softly sprung and underdampened and was likely going to be a tops 1:48 car.  But as many of you saw, it was not meant to be as one of the drivers lost the back end coming through turn 12 and a salvage boxster became a scrap boxster.  My take on it is that the rear of the car got light as the springs decompressed just past the bottom of the hill and he was not quite ready for it.  Maybe others have a different idea, either way here it is:

 

 

 

Driver's ok.  Lots of people came by to check on him during the next couple days so he wanted me to thank those that stopped by.  We all run out of talent sometimes, but the rubber and steel and fluids can be replaced so it's not the end of the world as long as flesh and bones are fine.

 

Fortunately the couple of us that still wanted to drive from that team were able to find seats.  Big thanks to the Never Start Racing Team for picking up one of my friends for some seat time.  I jumped in with NBY to try help the team repeat from a couple races ago.  Everything was going to plan when my stint began.  I got in the car in 4th, and was back in the lead promptly as some pit stops were made.  A mid stint caution opened the track up for a couple of time attack laps where the ftd was set.  

 

 

At least during my stint, everyone drove with a lot of respect.  People that got the blue flag almost all either ceded the space or maintained a predictable racing line, either of which is commendable and makes it easy for all of us to stay on track.  Unfortunately, the engine let go during the next driver's stint so the weekend turned out a total bust from a racing perspective.  But it was still good to see everyone on and off track.  Congrats Huggy team on the win.  Thanks to the Champcar staff and volunteers and double thanks to the safety teams and corner workers at Road Atlanta.

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That corner you have to be committed with the throttle. He was on and off throttle quite heavily, which likely upset the car.

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8 hours ago, Twt said:

The standard answer of "they are just better drivers " is tiresome, in that virtually ever team has one or more A+ drivers to create  a fast lap basis. 

Although I’m in favor of improving rules compliance, I find this particular statement both laughable and a large part of the problem. A+ means at least 90th percentile.  If the average team has 4 drivers and there are 100 teams, then the best driver on each team will be as low as 75th percentile (and that assumes no team has more than one hot shoe), so more than half of those best drivers will be below A+.   

If you factor in the obvious clustering of good drivers in good teams, you quickly get to less than 1/4 of the teams having A+ drivers.   25% is not “virtually all”.   

As a person who chronically rented across a LOT of teams, I can tell you that most teams do not have a Wyatt or a Chris on them.  The "slow" driver on Pinkies Out is probably a 50th percentile driver (I've shared a car with him in the past and can measure him against the broader spectrum of drivers I've teamed with) - and his fastest lap is typically slower than 80% of Wyatt's green laps.  (Wyatt is no longer in that car, but the same is true of Chris's laps).

There are practice days at many of our races.  If a team really wants to know where their talent stands (and most don’t - they’d rather believe the other guy is cheating than believe that they aren’t A+) all they have to do is ask Wyatt or Randy or someone else like that to turn a few laps in their car. 

 

Edited by Racer28173
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Our E30s have effectively been the same spec since my 1st race in 2015. From 2015 to this past weekend, I have dropped nearly 10sec/lap comparing FTDs. Do this long enough, more than 2-3 races a year, you will become a better driver. The series is on it's 10th year now, that's a lot of practice for a lot of guys.

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1 hour ago, Racer28173 said:

Although I’m in favor of improving rules compliance, I find this particular statement both laughable and a large part of the problem. A+ means at least 90th percentile.  If the average team has 4 drivers and there are 100 teams, then the best driver on each team will be as low as 75th percentile (and that assumes no team has more than one hot shoe), so more than half of those best drivers will be below A+.   

If you factor in the obvious clustering of good drivers in good teams, you quickly get to less than 1/4 of the teams having A+ drivers.   25% is not “virtually all”.   

As a person who chronically rented across a lot of teams, I can tell you that most teams do not have a Wyatt or a Chris on them.  

There are practice days at many of our races.  If a team really wants to know where their talent stands (and most don’t - they’d rather believe the other guy is cheating than believe that they aren’t A+) all they have to do is ask Wyatt or Randy or someone else like that to turn a few laps in their car. 

 

I'm glad I made you laugh, but that is not the point for my post. I have had Randy and several other pro drivers drive our cars and have been in the passenger seat while they drove my TT car....so I get it....they are special. Anyone at our Champ level who thinks they are another Randy Pobst is delusional. So, we have good, better and best drivers. All I want to know is that my team lost on a level playing field. This will motivate others to improve their car and/or their driving, knowing that these are the main factors for success. All of us recognize and appreciate the great teams like Cone Crusher who have well prepared cars and great drivers....no jealousy here. It's just the nobody driver(S) who show up and turn magical laps like they are driving a flying unicorn, that cause concern. Every amateur  sanctioning body from SCCA to NASA has had to periodically clamp down on rule breakers...it's just part of human nature to cheat....just look at Trump!!!!

Edited by Twt

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10 hours ago, krispykritter said:

 

Yeah, that's sucky, but we definitely appreciate your driver not using our bumper as a brake! 

 

Had a similar close call myself during practice and sometimes the only decent option is to pass to avoid causing another accident.

 

LSD would be great but is prohibitively expensive. A little less right foot helps that wheelspin issue as well! Also planning on ditching the front sway bar before Daytona. 

 

Looking forward to eventually catching that 626. We're slowly reeling it in!

 

In other news, the other cv that took us out of the race at 930 pm snapped when I tried to drive the car behind the fence today. So that was fun. 

 

 

I was racing the 626 this weekend and thoroughly enjoyed the competition with your car on track all day. I love the theme and the car, too. I'd bet that LSD would make the two cars closer competitors. Hope to see you guys many more times on track. Thanks for the good times. 

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31 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Our E30s have effectively been the same spec since my 1st race in 2015. From 2015 to this past weekend, I have dropped nearly 10sec/lap comparing FTDs. Do this long enough, more than 2-3 races a year, you will become a better driver. The series is on it's 10th year now, that's a lot of practice for a lot of guys.

I only needed to watch one in-car lap of Doc's driver to know that his car was probably at least 5 seconds a lap faster than three years ago.  That driver was very talented.  I'm sure if I saw your video from 2015 to now, I'd only need to see about 2 turns to be able to see the difference.  I'm happy to hear that you guys are much faster than in 2015 (I remember racing against your car back then). 

Most people understand that you have to do a LOT of rounds of golf in order to even be a half-decent golfer.  A few races a year only gets you to mediocre - you have to spend a lot more time at the track to get to the level of many of the drivers we see in top cars these days

Edited by Racer28173
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15 hours ago, Corman said:

I've been using the hotspot on my phone and mount the phone in the car

If you've already got a connected phone in the car, why not just stream straight to YouTube from it? We used an iPhone 6s at the last race and it worked great.

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11 hours ago, krispykritter said:

 

Yeah, that's sucky, but we definitely appreciate your driver not using our bumper as a brake! 

 

Had a similar close call myself during practice and sometimes the only decent option is to pass to avoid causing another accident.

 

LSD would be great but is prohibitively expensive. A little less right foot helps that wheelspin issue as well! Also planning on ditching the front sway bar before Daytona. 

 

Looking forward to eventually catching that 626. We're slowly reeling it in!

 

In other news, the other cv that took us out of the race at 930 pm snapped when I tried to drive the car behind the fence today. So that was fun. 

 

@krispykritter Nice race this weekend!! After reading some of these posts and the observation that you were getting a lot of inside tire spin, a couple things come to mind.

How was your front tire wear after the race? Carefully measure the tread depth and see what your wear pattern is, inside or outside edge. You previously posted that your alignment specs set the front at -5 degrees of negative camber. It seems to me that most folks running FWD cars with RS-4's are in  the -2.5 to -3.3 range. If your wear pattern looks ok, then the -5 may be ok, but setting up the front with a little less camber will help with straight line and braking stability.

 

You're already on the right track with your comment about testing with the front sway bar disconnected, that will help plant the inside tire better.

Stiffer springs on all 4 corners will also help body roll and reduce weight transfer, planting the inside better.

If the camber reduction, sway bar elimination, and stiffer springs don't help the inside tire spin enough, LSD would be the next option.

edit: P. S. If you don't have Mike Ogren's FWD Racing Guide, you should pick up a copy. It has some good info in it.

Edited by mcoppola
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17 minutes ago, Twt said:

I'm glad I made you laugh, but that is not the point for my post. I have had Randy and several other pro drivers drive our cars and have been in the passenger seat while they drove my TT car....so I get it....they are special. Anyone at our Champ level who thinks they are another Randy Pobst is delusional. So, we have good, better and best drivers. All I want to know is that my team lost on a level playing field. This will motivate others to improve their car and/or their driving, knowing that these are the main factors for success.

Racer28....   It sounds like you, also, race outside of CC.   For those of us who have experience racing in a Spec class that is tightly tech'd, and who see the difference tenths of a second make between qualifying 3rd or 13th, and who have seen our National Champions dance a car to gain that extra .10 sec a lap, it does become laughable to see the Outliers try to claim it's primarily due to their driving.  When several proven National/Pro racers in well-sorted/developed CC racecars of the same breed are bundled together inside the spread of one second yet the Outlier running the "same" platform circulates 4-6 seconds quicker per lap, all day long, yet maintains the same fuel mileage duration (maybe even dragging Aero anchors 1/3 the size of the car), it begs the question of "How"?   When the Pros get out of a well-prepped car and are commenting, "how is that possible", is it then worth questioning...   Let's ensure we're not being condescending and chalking it all up to talent disparity.   If it's ingenuity, lightness, and clever approaches to car building all within the bounds of the rules, that's fantastic and that room for imagination is one of the things that draws us to this series - but skepticism of huge gains is also healthy from those who know the difference something as minute as rolling resistance reduction can make in a spec series.    I hope this comes off as intended - I'm all for transparency to ensure the long-term health of the competition.

 

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3 minutes ago, Twt said:

I'm glad I made you laugh, but that is not the point for my post. I have had Randy and several other pro drivers drive our cars and have been in the passenger seat while they drove my TT car....so I get it....they are special. Anyone at our Champ level who thinks they are another Randy Pobst is delusional. So, we have good, better and best drivers. All I want to know is that my team lost on a level playing field. This will motivate others to improve their car and/or their driving, knowing that these are the main factors for success.

 

I totally get what you're saying here. I also totally expect the forum commentariat to act like you farted in a small room with them and won't let them out. So, prepare to enjoy a peevish onslaught of dismissal. (in fact, I went to a meeting in the middle of banging this out and you're probably already awash in it)

 

I'd like to see a lot more transparency and verification involved in pre and post-race tech and scrutiny. I'd absolutely pay a higher entry fee to cover the labor of bringing an expert technician to do the science and math at the end of the day, since the protests i've seen and heard about lately seem to boil down to a ruling based on lack of an expert, rather than a full assessment of what was protested. 

 

Of course, there are ways to game the dyno, if that's what's chosen as a policing method. Hidden switches, tire pressure, etc. People figuring out ways to break the law hasn't stopped us from having them. I still have to wear a seat belt even when I see other drivers on the interstate not wearing theirs. 

 

We have  a car we run w/ this and other series. The "whatever you want from the valve covers down" approach isn't gonna make me stop running here, but it is one of the things about the series that I don't like. 

 

It's great that the talent level in the series is always developing and it certainly showed on track this weekend in atlanta. Some of us arrive at the series as pretty squared away drivers already and with a pretty well-developed sense of when something is more than it should be. 

 

I SHOULD SAY AGAIN, LOUDER, THAT I WAS REALLY HAPPY TO COMPETE AMONG SUCH HIGH QUALITY, HEADS-UP, RESPECTFUL DRIVERS THIS WEEKEND. KUDOS to the series and the teams and drivers.

 

Good luck,  @Twt. Didn't want you to feel all alone with your thoughts. 

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56 minutes ago, Twt said:

It's just the nobody driver(S) who show up and turn magical laps like they are driving a flying unicorn, that cause concern.

How do you know someone is a "nobody driver"?

Edited by mindspin311
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11 hours ago, krispykritter said:

 

LSD would be great but is prohibitively expensive. A little less right foot helps that wheelspin issue as well! Also planning on ditching the front sway bar before Daytona. 

 

Looking forward to eventually catching that 626. We're slowly reeling it in!

 

 

Couple of pointers from another guy who has done the wrong end drive thing for awhile (and some right end drive).

 

You need to prioritize power application. Fwd cars need to make use of their throttle on stability (stay in gas to stop a spin), ease of driving in bad conditions and power to weight advantage that should be there due to drivetrain packaging. Without those it is just a cheaper to build poor dynamics car. 

 

A welder is cheap, and you can weld up the diff as an option. Be slow and careful in the paddock so you don't break axles. 

 

5 deg camber is not unheard of, given the crappy camber compliance many fwd have. Make stuff bend less and you can run less static and have better drive\brake. 

 

Sweep tire pressure, higher camber should allow lower pressures. Helps get back some of the drive brake. 

 

Work on driving more "diamond" shaped corners than big arcs. If you have the motor to use you need to prioritize power down. You can do this by reducing your combined drive\cornering loads. 

 

No law says the camber has to be the same on both fronts, road atlanta has the primary corners biased in the direction you would expect. 

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1 hour ago, bendawson3 said:

 

I was racing the 626 this weekend and thoroughly enjoyed the competition with your car on track all day. I love the theme and the car, too. I'd bet that LSD would make the two cars closer competitors. Hope to see you guys many more times on track. Thanks for the good times. 

 

Thanks for the comment!  We appreciate it.  We also had a blast racing against you guys, and we were very happy with the changes we've made lately.  The competition was much closer between us this time around, and it made for some very exciting laps.  Thanks for the great fun!

 

23 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

@krispykritter Nice race this weekend!! After reading some of these posts and the observation that you were getting a lot of inside tire spin, a couple things come to mind.

How was your front tire wear after the race? Carefully measure the tread depth and see what your wear pattern is, inside or outside edge. You previously posted that your alignment specs set the front at -5 degrees of negative camber. It seems to me that most folks running FWD cars with RS-4's are in  the -2.5 to -3.3 range. If your wear pattern looks ok, then the -5 may be ok, but setting up the front with a little less camber will help with straight line and braking stability.

 

You're already on the right track with your comment about testing with the front sway bar disconnected, that will help plant the inside tire better.

Stiffer springs on all 4 corners will also help body roll and reduce weight transfer, planting the inside better.

If the camber reduction, sway bar elimination, and stiffer springs don't help the inside tire spin enough, LSD would be the next option.

edit: P. S. If you don't have Mike Ogren's FWD Racing Guide, you should pick up a copy. It has some good info in it.

 

To be honest, haven't looked terribly closely at the tire wear just yet - it's a long weekend for us and I'm still not done unpacking from the trip.  We're running g-force comp 2s at the moment, with Saturday cold pressures of 32F/26R on the left and 34/28 on the right and 400 lb/in front springs w/ sway bar, and 225 lbs/in rears.  Still looks like some shoulder wear on the left front tire but the other three wore pretty well - have to confirm when I get a few minutes away from work!  The RS-4 are what is going on these wheels after we wear out the comp 2s.

 

5 degrees does seem extreme, and between the camber and toe out front alignment, it's definitely more stable in corners than straight lines.  I'm planning to drop the camber to maybe 3.5-4 at daytona.  There is some body roll to the car now, but it's not bad, and I get about 1 inch of compression added camber before the suspension arms are parallel to the ground.  Considering lifting it a little more to add to that.  Less camber/no front sway should help that inside tire a bit, but it's always a compromise between corner speeds vs exit traction.

 

I don't have mike's book, but have heard many good things about it.  Might just bite the bullet and pick it up later today. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

2 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Couple of pointers from another guy who has done the wrong end drive thing for awhile (and some right end drive).

 

You need to prioritize power application. Fwd cars need to make use of their throttle on stability (stay in gas to stop a spin), ease of driving in bad conditions and power to weight advantage that should be there due to drivetrain packaging. Without those it is just a cheaper to build poor dynamics car. 

 

A welder is cheap, and you can weld up the diff as an option. Be slow and careful in the paddock so you don't break axles. 

 

5 deg camber is not unheard of, given the crappy camber compliance many fwd have. Make stuff bend less and you can run less static and have better drive\brake. 

 

Sweep tire pressure, higher camber should allow lower pressures. Helps get back some of the drive brake. 

 

Work on driving more "diamond" shaped corners than big arcs. If you have the motor to use you need to prioritize power down. You can do this by reducing your combined drive\cornering loads. 

 

No law says the camber has to be the same on both fronts, road atlanta has the primary corners biased in the direction you would expect. 

 

I hadn't even considered having less camber on one side than the other. Would have to ponder that!  Also didn't consider just welding the front diff - always thought that was mostly relegated to the doooorifto cars.  5 degrees is a lot, but we're finally getting better tire wear than we have in every race in the past.  Definitely running much lower pressures than in the past with the larger/wider wheels and 3 extra degrees of camber!

 

Sadly, the contour has the duratec 2.5L v6 ... which is the same block as the 3.0 and 3.5L but with thicker cylinder walls and a cast aluminum vs plastic intake manifold.  It's one big heavy engine.  Our weight balance is like 65/35 or worse, and we've still got completely intact A, B, and C pillars, engine bay, and bumper bars.  We drive a fat pig of a car.

 

I can say (driver dependent, and excluding the front runners) we were one of the most stable cars through the esses and from turn 12 through turn 2.  I did most of my passing by being WOT down the hill and cutting to the inside of other cars on the finish straight and back up the hill at turn 1.  The rest was done coming through turn 7 at the top of the hill - we could just be to the floor from turn 3 to turn 7.  Road Atlanta is one hell of a track, I'm so glad we got the chance to run there.

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19 minutes ago, bendawson3 said:

 

I totally get what you're saying here. I also totally expect the forum commentariat to act like you farted in a small room with them and won't let them out. So, prepare to enjoy a peevish onslaught of dismissal. (in fact, I went to a meeting in the middle of banging this out and you're probably already awash in it)

 

I'd like to see a lot more transparency and verification involved in pre and post-race tech and scrutiny. I'd absolutely pay a higher entry fee to cover the labor of bringing an expert technician to do the science and math at the end of the day, since the protests i've seen and heard about lately seem to boil down to a ruling based on lack of an expert, rather than a full assessment of what was protested. 

 

Of course, there are ways to game the dyno, if that's what's chosen as a policing method. Hidden switches, tire pressure, etc. People figuring out ways to break the law hasn't stopped us from having them. I still have to wear a seat belt even when I see other drivers on the interstate not wearing theirs. 

 

We have  a car we run w/ this and other series. The "whatever you want from the valve covers down" approach isn't gonna make me stop running here, but it is one of the things about the series that I don't like. 

 

 

The fart analogy is real. 

 

The rules in the series are still being banged out in big ways, so i think you have to think of this as a progression, and we still have a ways to go. 

 

Politically people all want parity in their own way, equality until their advantages are removed and then go back to "didn't pick your car" protectionism outlook. We are still sorting out what we want equity to look like, so keep in mind certain makes of cars will have distinct advantages that take awhile to work out. 

 

What shows up as big differences in cars probably is. We are still trying to decide if you can claim fixed items like aero or reground cams as "reused" or material costs, or if fixed items are in fact fixed. Things you may claim as points may be done to the same outcome, but in a way that does not incur points on another car because of how they did it (or described it). This is part of the identity of champcar that people are trying to work out, do we want parity of car performance or just "you had the option to do/buy/build what they did" and cars seconds apart in speed potential. We are sort of in the middle now, and for the teams that know the game the times are not terrible apart (for cars that haven't had their values gamed).

 

For those that care, get involved and vocal in petitions, board elections, the big meeting at charlotte, and voice what you want the series to be. I think the part that has rubbed you guys the wrong way is a misunderstanding of what the rules are intending to create, which is understandable because some days i don't always know either. It's a work in progress....

 

The ultimate way to make protests easier is to offer up all spec data for podium cars. You podium and your dyno number, weight, tech sheet\logbook, build sheet (what should be in tech sheet, non oe parts listed and swapped parts listed by donor) all go up as public record. A bunch of pics as well. If you are seconds slower you can get an idea why, and what you need to build. Nascar has the "open garage" policy for this reason, no walls can go up so you are able to look closely at what your neighbor is doing to help self police.

 

Sector times would help as well, and if some tracks have more timing loops this would be possible. Like a long straight. 

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3 hours ago, macheesy said:

  My take on it is that the rear of the car got light as the springs decompressed just past the bottom of the hill and he was not quite ready for it.  Maybe others have a different idea, either way here it is:

 

Yea like @jakks said, you gotta be on the gas to keep the rear planted though that corner.  His lift mid corner wasn't ideal, but that turn takes a lot of guts.  Glad to hear his ok, sorry about the car.

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22 hours ago, Jer said:

Preach on!  What a great first post and welcome!  Did you like the race management and the Champcar experience?

 

Overall I had a good experience, for sure. There was much less contact/crashy behavior than my prior Champ experience at VIR North. But since you asked, here are my concerns with the experience at Road Atlanta:

Yellow is the New Green. I got passed under yellow, openly and obviously, at least three times. Each time was after the flag, not that it should matter, as one is under line-of-sight control in this series, anyway. I’m aware of numerous other circumstances where this happened over the weekend. This is a huge safety issue that needs reform. One is, as a competitor, it’s disheartening to see someone gain inappropriate advantage in that situation. But that’s the lesser issue. Two is, and of course this is the much bigger issue: it’s a massive safety concern to other competitors and the track crew. It’s something that must be enforced and taken seriously, and I didn’t leave Road Atlanta with a feeling that was the case.

Weaponized Exhaust Noise. I consider this to be a very serious health and safety issue. Pursuant to Rule 9.14.1, exhaust noise is limited to 96 db at 50 feet from the track. Debate could be had as to whether that limitation is sufficient.  Regardless, this noise rule as it stands was wholly unenforced at the Road Atlanta race.  And there weren’t merely one or two noise offenders, to my mind, but a very significant portion of the field operating well in excess of the rule.  There were numerous occasions where it was quite painful to be subjected to that noise, especially for extended periods of time as cars ran at full chat down the back straight. I was wearing foam-plug type headphones inside my helmet and still found it excruciating.  The noise limitation isn’t merely to limit nuisance to businesses and homes near the track, it is a critical health and safety issue for the drivers especially, but also crew and others at the track. None of us should be expected to risk – much less experience – hearing damage, whether temporary or permanent, as a result of motorsports competition. There were at least a few cars that were loud enough to have what I consider to be weaponized noise: it’s that loud to intentionally cause pain and discomfort to competitors nearby. Which is, of course, complete bull cookies and tantamount to intentionally physically assaulting one’s competitors.

Drivers’ Meeting. If you’re going to have a drivers’ meeting where critical information concerning competition safety is discussed -- information which directly impacts the health and safety of not only the competitors but the safety crew at the track -- you need to have a way to enforce attendance at the meeting. I think separate wristbands should be required for drivers’ meeting attendance and that a driver wishing to enter the track for competition should be required to display that wristband in addition to any other requirements.  There were numerous on-track issues this weekend where the driver obviously hadn’t attended the meeting.  As regards the meeting, it should be concise and to the point, with questions reserved for after the presenter has concluded. For whatever reason, it doesn’t appear that there’s a standard outline of information to cover at the drivers’ meetings, and this should be tightened up quite a bit.

Paddock Pandemonium. Other commenters have already touched on the need for the Paddock to be more organized in terms of parking and which teams are assigned where. Please allow this to serve as my concurrence in that. I would like to take this opportunity to join in especially lampooning the dullard who parked their RV well past the line near the entrance to the pits at the bottom of the hill. C’mon, man. It wasn’t even close. How selfish can you be? Why didn’t the track or organizers require that it be corrected?  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

 

Yea like @jakks said, you gotta be on the gas to keep the rear planted though that corner.  His lift mid corner wasn't ideal, but that turn takes a lot of guts.  Glad to hear his ok, sorry about the car.

It's a scary corner.  That corner ended my boss' racing career.  He slammed into the wall in a Lola prototype and after many surgeries and a long time in the hospital, he never got his edge back-it was his last season.  The key is waiting until you are sure you can commit IMHO.  Stay off the gas until you're sure, and back that up each lap.  Once on the gas, stay on it.  I've driven a gazillion laps there in multiple cars and I still don't feel like I own that turn.  But a lift after committing is a sure fire way to lose it.  Different skilled drivers can do driver harder and deeper.  I know I wasn't on the gas as early as some others this weekend, but Bio was too twitchy to go whole hog.  I knew my limitations; some were me, some were the car. 

 

Glad he's ok.  

Edited by Jer

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