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Gussets for door bars


skierman64
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I sent an email to tech@champcar.com a week ago and haven't heard back yet so I thought I'd try here.  

 

I have X bars for my doors which are no longer legal in Champcar.  What type of gussets do i need in the doors to make them legal?  The more descriptive the better.  

 

Thanks

 

#LetsGoBlues

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I know there's a thread here about it, but that was Phill's ruling, so that may have changed.  We have not had an official ruling on X bars with the new "administration".

 

X bars are legal if you also have a sill bar.  May be easier to ad one of those.  Chassis depending anyway.

 

If you get a clear answer from tech, make sure to post here.

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I suspect gussets will be easier to add than a door sill bar.  But we'll look at both options with the welder.  

 

It seems a bit absurd my cage is currently WRL, AER, SCCA and NASA legal but not Champcar.  

Edited by skierman64
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As far as I've ever been told by tech, the sill bar is considered a door bar, and you only need one if your lowest door bar is so many inches from the sill.  An X bar and a sill bar would meet the required 2 complete bars rule.

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I'll work it out with tech.  I was told previously that all i needed to do was add gussets.  I'm not going to show up with something questionable and get turned away.  However, I just need to talk to tech, at this point time is getting short.  

Edited by skierman64
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A very low bar that is kinda stitch welded to the inner rocker probably saved me from some injury.  The sill bar kept that part of the car from moving in my big hit at Charlotte. 

 

I would recommend if it is a fairly easy option to make the car legal.

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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

A very low bar that is kinda stitch welded to the inner rocker probably saved me from some injury.  The sill bar kept that part of the car from moving in my big hit at Charlotte. 

 

I would recommend if it is a fairly easy option to make the car legal.


There's no room on the main hoop to connect a sill bar.  Regardless I'll work with tech to get to an acceptable solution.  

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24 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

The rule book says gussets make my x bars legal.  

 

3.2.3. Two continuous/unbroken driver-side door bars (labeled “7”) that will prevent cockpit intrusion. NASCAR-style or X-design (with gussets) is acceptable.

 

But even with gussets you still have a "broken" bar. I interpret the "X-design (with gussets)" verbiage to mean it still needs to be 2 continuous/unbroken pieces. I could be wrong. Either way, a lower door bar tied into the sill sounds like a good idea regardless. 

 

Edit: I'm sure properly gusseted, a broken X would be safe, but I think the word unbroken was thrown in there to keep sub-par stuff from showing up. 

 

Double-edit: the only reason I am chiming in is I remember when this first came up (last year? 2017? Who knows) and the ruling being that a broken-X only counts as "1" door bar. I was freaked out because that is how our pass. side is built, but you only need "1" to be legal on the pass. side so it ended up a moot point. Ours is taco-gusseted and I am confident of it being safe.

Edited by pintodave
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@skierman64 - got any hard-shell tacos in your kitchen cupboard?   Take 2 of those, place one on the top of the X w/ mouth down, place the other on the bottom of the X w/ mouth up.   Edges get welded the the X, top and bottom/inside and outside of the door bars.  That is the idea to add strength to the intersection.

 

 

 

@mcoppola - post up a pic of the gussets you've made.

 

 

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3 hours ago, pintodave said:

 

But even with gussets you still have a "broken" bar. I interpret the "X-design (with gussets)" verbiage to mean it still needs to be 2 continuous/unbroken pieces. I could be wrong. Either way, a lower door bar tied into the sill sounds like a good idea regardless. 

 

Edit: I'm sure properly gusseted, a broken X would be safe, but I think the word unbroken was thrown in there to keep sub-par stuff from showing up. 

 

Double-edit: the only reason I am chiming in is I remember when this first came up (last year? 2017? Who knows) and the ruling being that a broken-X only counts as "1" door bar. I was freaked out because that is how our pass. side is built, but you only need "1" to be legal on the pass. side so it ended up a moot point. Ours is taco-gusseted and I am confident of it being safe.

 

I was told 2 seasons ago that I could gusset my x and that would pass. I just need an official to verify that before I pay to have the work done. 

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1 hour ago, NigelStu said:

@skierman64 - got any hard-shell tacos in your kitchen cupboard?   Take 2 of those, place one on the top of the X w/ mouth down, place the other on the bottom of the X w/ mouth up.   Edges get welded the the X, top and bottom/inside and outside of the door bars.  That is the idea to add strength to the intersection.

 

 

 

@mcoppola - post up a pic of the gussets you've made.

 

 

 

No but Taco Bell is 3 miles away.

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11 hours ago, NigelStu said:

@skierman64 - got any hard-shell tacos in your kitchen cupboard?   Take 2 of those, place one on the top of the X w/ mouth down, place the other on the bottom of the X w/ mouth up.   Edges get welded the the X, top and bottom/inside and outside of the door bars.  That is the idea to add strength to the intersection.

 

 

 

@mcoppola - post up a pic of the gussets you've made.

 

 

Firewalls at work are not allowing me to post pics easily - stay tuned...

In the meantime, this was the gusset sketch Phil once posted.

I believe there was a petition that passed that is going to elaborate on this verbiage, and possibly provide graphics, in the 2020 BCCR.

 

image.thumb.png.8ae5db110506d56ce3a4cc9d5ff112b9.png

 

And here is the official description of a taco gusset, from the FIA rulebook.

image.thumb.jpeg.19166fdcf998425cea930ea84f27463e.jpeg

 

Edited by mcoppola
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Here we go...

These are not very easy to find - especially in various tube intersection angles.

I'm getting ready to put together a website with these taco gussets being one of the fabricated items we offer.

If anyone is interested , we can make them to the FIA specifications in various angles for $30 each. 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

Edited by mcoppola
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1 hour ago, mcoppola said:

FIA rule mandates 2 per intersection.

4 would naturally be better.

 

Mike once I give you the angles, how quickly can I get my hands on gussets?  

 

It seems that there's more issue of the failure occurring with a vertical break than with a horizontal break.  In other words, gusseting like in Mike's picture (above and below the joint) is stronger than as depicted in Phil's drawing (with gussets left and right of the joint).  

 

 

Edited by skierman64
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1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

 

Mike once I give you the angles, how quickly can I get my hands on gussets?  

 

It seems that there's more issue of the failure occurring with a vertical break than with a horizontal break.  In other words, gusseting like in Mike's picture (above and below the joint) is stronger than as depicted in Phil's drawing (with gussets left and right of the joint).  

 

 

Mike, once I get the angles, I could have them done in a night or 2 after my day job.

In all, about 3-5 days with shipping time included.

Let me know...

Edited by mcoppola
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59 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Mike, once I get the angles, I could have them done in a night or 2 after my day job.

In all, about 3-5 days with shipping time included.

Let me know...

 

Mike, I just noticed you're on the tech advisory committee.  Can you confirm that a X door bar as you posted above meets the intent of the rules in regard to be being legal?  

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3 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Mike, I just noticed you're on the tech advisory committee.  Can you confirm that a X door bar as you posted above meets the intent of the rules in regard to be being legal?  

The rules' intention is that the 2 required door bars on the drivers' side of the car are unbroken. (Passenger side only requires 1 door bar.)

IF the X bars are 1 continuous bar with the 2nd bar of the X being 'broken' or 2 piece where it intersects the first bar, then gussets are required.

TAC discussed defining the requirements of the taco gussets (size, material thickness, etc), since the published rule has no definition, but no detailed definition was ever spelled out. Perhaps we will work to word this better for 2020.

In the meantime, as stated, the gussets I make meet FIA guidelines, and have had no trouble at Champcar Tech in the cars we've used them on. FIA states 1.0mm (.040") minimum thickness. We usually make them in .095" to match the rollcage tube minimum thickness spec, even though Champ does not spell it out.

 

If it's easier for you to deal locally, Izzy's (Scott Rhea) used to show these gussets on their site. I had trouble getting into his work schedule to get some made a few years back, so I started making them myself.

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