Team Infiniti Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 A dead horse discussion, one I have brought up a few times before. I need to order tires and was not particularity warm and fuzzy about Dunlop changing things again, we gelled well with the Dulop Star Spec II, anything else on the car had wear, feel and handling issues. Now that we have one race with Dunlop III its evident there will be a learning curve to get them right...Yes they were faster but also wore faster, wanted different pressures and seemed to fall off suddenly when hot, only one of those traits appeals. Have tried Hancook III twice, good lap times but wore fast @ PBIR, yeah that place is a cheese grader but 2 stints is hardly what I would call even close, Sebring, they looked like hell after 7 hours and made the car feel funny both times. Dunlop Star Spec II, ran em for years, would typically get decent enough lap times and sometimes 30 hours out of them. Dunlop III Charlotte, great lap times but the reason for wall hit still questionable, some say the suspension had a failure, others say the tires were simply more finicky, either way, the car did not feel right and it looks like wear may be a issue (unrelated to possible suspension problem) Looking for data from teams that have run both the Dunlop and Hancook on HEAVY cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 Yo @NigelStu.... Ben and I just had this conversation. I have not tried the ziii. I have run the rs4 and think they are the cats meow. Ben thinks the ziii are even better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) I found the Z3s to be sensitive to heat even on a light car (205s on a 1900 lb Civic). First day they seemed good, pretty good grip and wear with temps in the 80's. Next day was in the 90's and they wore quickly and felt greasy. From the look of the tires from the day before we should have been able to get another 7 hours out of them easily but had to put some old RE-71Rs on just to get to the end of the race. Just did a test day with updated suspension, wider wheels and wider 225 R-S4 tires and the grip was impressive even on a moderate day (low 60's). Was already running out of rpm at the end of the short chutes so will probably have to shift when the track warms up. Edited June 3, 2019 by mender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 Been running the RS4's on a heavy car in another series for a long time, no complaints, but we aren't comparing to anything else either, can't even remember the last tire we tried before that (probably ZII*). Price is good for 18" sizes, and RS4 are almost always the most popular tire I've seen at impound in the last couple years. The wear is great, probably better than the old Dunlops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 Ran rs4s on charlotte on the black neon i was helping with. Not the fastest car out there but at least decent. Tires looked maybe half worn after 12 hours (of 14 the rest of you ran). Seems to be the new vanilla tire. Forgiving from a wear standpoint and durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted June 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Black Magic said: Seems to be the new vanilla tire. Forgiving from a wear standpoint and durability. You are not sold on hancooks lap times? If only dunlop marketing understood their client base better we wouldn't need a new tire, I really hope these changes affect their bottom line enough to notice... Is there anyone with a insider contact there? I tried to get someone to talk to me when they went from Z1 to the Z2, they were very rigid, unwilling and too corporate to hear anything. Edited June 4, 2019 by Team Infiniti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 21 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: You are not sold on hancooks lap times? If only dunlop marketing understood their client base better we wouldn't need a new tire, I really hope these changes affect their bottom line enough to notice... Is there anyone with a insider contact there? I tried to get someone to talk to me when they went from Z1 to the Z2, they were very rigid, unwilling and too corporate to hear anything. I would be sold on re71 laptimes....i would also like a tire sponsor to afford the extra tire changes..... For a team desiring a tire with budget series tire wear, that can do pretty well, it is a good choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Black Magic said: I would be sold on re71 laptimes....i would also like a tire sponsor to afford the extra tire changes..... For a team desiring a tire with budget series tire wear, that can do pretty well, it is a good choice. These are probably typical quotes but certainly not to be considered fact: BMW: "I've driven both back-to-back. Same car, same track, dry pavement.I was 1 second slower in the R-S4.R-S4 "feels" a bit more like a street tire in that it has just a bit more squeal and a bit more squirm. This is not a big deal at all to me, but noticeable.R-S4 lasts twice as long (no exaggeration) based on my experience.The RE71Rs are amazing tires, no question, but I just can't justify using them anymore given how long the R-S4s last on my car. In fact, the last time I bought RE71Rs was just because the Hankooks were sold out." Porsche: "The RS4 wear like iron and are a remarkable balance of performance & durability. I am on a endurance team (Champcar, Chumpcar) and we have fully switched over to using the RS4s. Easily last twice as long as the RE-71 with only a slight decrease in performance.Unless you're going for time-attack or autocross performance, the RS4 is the right choice." Edited June 4, 2019 by mender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottyk Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 What’s a hancook? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblue Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) RS4 was our goto tire. The RE71 just doesn't last even if a hair faster. Recently tried a couple events on federal 959 RR. found it to last 85% as long as RS4, half way between the RS4 and RE71 in grip, and 50% the cost. results may vary. I've run star spec on other champcars, RS4 is just cheaper and better. Edited June 4, 2019 by theblue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted June 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 51 minutes ago, mender said: These are probably typical quotes but certainly not to be considered fact: Fine and dandy if we were in the market for re71 Our decision is strictly limited to the 2 tires in this poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said: Fine and dandy if we were in the market for re71 Our decision is strictly limited to the 2 tires in this poll. Just pointing out how at least one of the tires compares to the current top tire re: the laptimes that you questioned BM about and seemed to think was pertinent ... Ignore what you're not interested in, the info is free. Edited June 4, 2019 by mender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, scottyk said: What’s a hancook? Like the Will Smith character Hancock, a tire that seems impervious to damage..... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said: Fine and dandy if we were in the market for re71 Our decision is strictly limited to the 2 tires in this poll. If unwilling to buy re71, rs4 would be my preference over the new Dunlops. I did not get laptimes but have run mixed setups (swapping rs4 on the front during a race that had 4 Direzzas) and didn't notice a balance change. Rs4 lasted longer. I think fundamentally once you agree to not buy the best, the performance matters less than wear\consistency. Edited June 4, 2019 by Black Magic 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Black Magic said: If unwilling to buy re71, rs4 would be my preference over the new Dunlops. I did not get laptimes but have run mixed setups (swapping rs4 on the front during a race that had 4 Direzzas) and didn't notice a balance change. Rs4 lasted longer. I swapped year-old RE-71Rs onto the left side of the Civic with one day old Z3s on the right side and could feel the better grip that the RE-71Rs had, even after heat cycling. I did it that way to make sure I didn't change the balance and I could immediately feel the different in cornering when alternating corners. Not the best comparison in that it isn't directly Z3 vs R-S4s but with the R-S4s comparing well to the RE-71Rs I think the Z3s are not quite at their level for grip. Edited June 4, 2019 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest E. Tyler Pedersen Posted June 4, 2019 Report Share Posted June 4, 2019 Depends what comes in a 245/40/15 and a ZIII does not come in that option......just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee NigelStu Posted June 5, 2019 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) My team has had... issues.... with the RS4 in the wet/cold (2 big spins and 2 crashes that involved spinning from the back end stepping out with barely noticeable warning and no potential to catch for us mere mortals, and a few 'fun' moments in my Miata on the street/track in the wet). RS4s need heat to work well on my cars. Or maybe on the E36/Miata (with stupid wide tires) in general and it is difficult to get the heat when its cold and rainy. I found the RS4s to be very 'peaky' near grip limit when cold - minimal warning before limit is reached and significant grip drop-off. Now when its hot out, they work very well, seem to enjoy abuse (seem to work better when they are run with some decent slip angle) and last a long time. reasonable control at limits (when hot) with a window of slip angle that the tires can work in. Still a bit of a quick drop-off on the far end. I have not researched specifics, but I would expect the RS4s to have much stiffer sidewalls that want be be un-flexed (so will 'snap' back in place if sidewall is loaded up). Basically best tire if your divers tip the scale towards hoonigans who just go out and push the car/tires until the tires scream in agony and maybe back off a bit. Note that this is with a 255/40 tire on 9" wheels, running with some stretch (245 on 9 or 255 on 9.5-10) may make the tire more consistent in all weather due to the sidewalls being pre-loaded (can't grip, load and try to snap back to unloaded). ZIII - have not had in the wet yet. We ran them at Charlotte. Car felt more compliant, easier to place the car with fine steering inputs, softer slip-angle/grip peak, compared to RS4s. Wear was good, especially considering all the toe-in we ended up with (front tires have plenty of usable tread left). Car was reasonably quick at Charlotte with relative to other cars, good grip through the various speed corners, good tactile feedback. Braking felt more controllable. These tires feel like they need to be driven by someone who knows what a tire slip-angle/lateral grip chart looks like, can tell when they are within the optimal slip-angle and can back off from over driving when they feel they are going beyond the peak and into the drop-off zone. Granted, I have not done any back-to back testing between the 2 (RS4 vs ZIII) to compare lap times and feel in the same conditions. There is potential I may be able to do so in next few weeks (fingers crossed). I have done some back to back on same day between ZIII and RE71Rs. RE71Rs have more grip/speed all the way to the cords than the ZIII have in their 2nd heat cycle with plenty of tread left. ~1 second delta that required a small setup change, tire pressure adjustments and driving style change with ZIII to get that close. If you go with RS4s, I'll be very curious to hear about our experience, since I was the one asking YOUR team about tire pressures at Charlotte. Edited June 5, 2019 by NigelStu 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 5, 2019 Report Share Posted June 5, 2019 My test day with the R-S4s was on a cooler day (mid 60's F) and short sessions, about 10-15 minutes each. 225/45/15 tires on 15 x 9s, 1900 lb Civic. I simulated race starts each time out by waiting until the session went green then pulling out of the pits and running hard from the first corner. There's a bump through one of the turns that requires a lighter touch and it wasn't hard to lock up the inside front there on the first couple of laps. That more or less slipped into the background with more laps. Checking tire temps: the cold pit requires a drive through the hot pit so the tires had time to cool a bit, and of course I was doing everything myself so even more time to cool. Hottest temps I saw were in the mid 120's, so not up to temp. No graining, just scuffing, especially the rears. I didn't get the feeling that the tires were excessively peaky but could tell that they got more forgiving with heat. Hoping for July temps next time out! I didn't find the Z3s to be as touchy when cold but they seemed to have an upper temp limit. Sounds like Ed found that limit as well. Same comment as NigelStu re: 255/40/17s on 9" wheels, might need a wider wheel to reduce squirm especially on the rear. I went to 275s on the 9" and the car felt very sloppy compared to 255s on 9". If I were to rank the tires that we've had on the Civic like F1 does, I would say that the RE-71Rs = reds, Z3s = yellows and R-S4s = whites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted June 5, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) Heat: Plenty Slip angle: Most of us learned on dirt 17x9 rims: unfortunately We find the upper limit of everything, Hankook appears to be winning here... @NigelStu I presume you were running everything with the same alignment? Edited June 5, 2019 by Team Infiniti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee NigelStu Posted June 5, 2019 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted June 5, 2019 ^Only changes between RE71Rs and ZIIIs were tire pressures and aero setting. RS4s were last year w/o aero and more RR toe-in. If I can manage to get to the track for testing RS4 vs. ZIII, it'll be with same alignment and aero settings so I can get a clear difference in how the car behaves with the 2 tires. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted June 6, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2019 On 6/4/2019 at 10:44 PM, NigelStu said: good tactile feedback This is one of my biggest complaints with the Hankook 3, they feel weird, vague, Dunlop 2 more precise, and good word, tactile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted June 6, 2019 Report Share Posted June 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said: This is one of my biggest complaints with the Hankook 3, they feel weird, vague, Dunlop 2 more precise, and good word, tactile. 3's are dead, long live the 4's 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted June 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) Looking at tire rack comment section on the Dunlop, a few lemons teams that have noted increased wear, the decision is made. Edited June 14, 2019 by Team Infiniti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted June 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 Four RS-4 ordered, thanks for the input. See everyone at Indy ! Leaving Poll open. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) I ordered 4 R-S4 225/45-15 tires and 15 x 9 wheels for ORP last fall, got all of 35 minutes before my first driver broke a rim. No spares so had to use the worn and heat-cycled Z3s for the rest of the weekend. Well off the pace we should have been at just because I was trying to go cheap. Three new wheels and two extra tires means this year I now have a full set plus two spares, hopefully that's enough this time! Edited June 15, 2019 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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