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JDChristianson

What if there were only 2 classes?

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Just to start another idea generating (or squashing) conversation.

 

What if the current arbitrary displacement based classes were done away with and replaced with just 2 classes?

 

My thoughts or objectives are:

1)  Maintain running for the overall win as the primary focus

2)  Keep the innovative creative nature of our race car builds.

3)  Keep and enhance the low entry barriers to racing and being competitive.

4) Continue to compete with a large field of teams

 

Class 1     Super Champcar

This class is exactly what we have now.  500 points max to not take penalty laps.  No changes to your existing car.

 

Class 2   Limited Prep Champcar

This is the new idea.    Some basic guidelines follow.  The details would have to be worked out

1) No cars over 400 points

2) No swapped engine cars

3) Liimited Aero    The only allowed aero would be an air dam (no splitter) and a 4 or 6 inch trunk spoiler.

4) Tire and wheel size limits.   (this has to be different for different cars)  An example would be 205 width on 7inch rims for Miatas

5) Everything adds points. (or more things at least)  non oem springs are points, non oem bushings are points, changing suspension attachment points is points.  etc

 

The idea is to be able to really build a less expensive car.    I'd want the limited prep cars to have an easy path to Super Champ if the team decided to go that route.  

 

I think this could result in a 100 car field with 35 or so limited prep cars and 65 SuperChamps.   If that's not big enough fields to compete against, I'm not sure what is.  

 

Thoughts?     (try not to be to mean, I cry easy)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 5/31/2019 at 9:41 AM, Huggy said:

No, No, No, Please dear god NO.

 

Before we go off on this tangent of complicated new "classes" or rules, lets focus on improving what we already have by actually FOLLOWING our existing rules, by properly and clearly COMMUNICATING with our customers/members, and by improving the accuracy of our data within our current rule set.

 

image.png.4f4b44fbba8e79b11927d5e29143797d.png

 

2.2.2 = I assume champcar determined that the cayman and myriad of e46m3's allowed in ec arent "excessively superior" to standard champcars?  

2.2.4 = I assume these are the rules listed in 2.1?  Does a GT4 Cayman cup car meet rule 2.2.1?

 

image.png.dde63de226f2b9e0d8904d0a23630d42.png

 

 

Champcar should have enough on the plate already, what with digital tech and swap sheets, improving statistical tracking of VPI's, TCV's, and scoring, Champcar Live, trying to continually "resuscitate" the western regions, etc. 

Adding a complicated new classing system is not going to be a good business move IMO.

 

Stick to what we know.  Go back and assess the previous EC allowances and consider being more judicial with what meets rule 2.2.2, particularly in sold out east cost events or tracks where higher closing speeds can be achieved by cars with more power/wt than is normal in champcar.  Put that time and energy into improving communication with members on current rules - keep everyone in the loop if a new car or new part shows up at a race and a ruling is issued.  Keep up the improvements to champcar live, and keep up with race monitor/race hero.  Things are going in the right direction, lets not jump off the rails.

 

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I don't mind the idea as a way to re-class the field and give a better way to make a gateway for new (to racing) teams. I also feel like the series could do well to dial the speed back a touch. 

 

But, # 4 and 5 look so complex to get started. And then there are two totally different rule sets...? No way, fully disagree. 

 

i agree with Huggy, there's way to much going on to even THINK about implementing something like that. 

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"...dial the speed back a touch. "

said no racer ever

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Like the fender rule.  No one is going to go smaller on rubber, so now we just have a field of ugly cars.  genius.    

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How about a modified Champcar specific West and or central ruleset where Lemons legal cars, Lucky Dog and such are proper to run, please present a logbook/penalty laps from your last race  for consideration?

 

naaa, too easy to get right ,also too easy to upset the same clients that seem to hold a endless Condern grudge.

 

Should that be in green?

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Why does it seem like every year somebody has this great new idea to completely change the classing/VPI system? 

Last year it was points-based classes...

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Some of the proponents of classes are the 500 point, maxed out cars who are still enough off-pace that a podium is out of reach, but they still want hardware to take home from the track (maybe it’s a millennial thing?). So they want further breakdowns of the competition until there’s a small enough division of cars in “their class” that they can compete for a “podium”.

 

Your idea would implement fewer classes and this group would be dissatisfied. 

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1,3,4 sound like a reasonable thing to do for a "Jr" class. No aero, oem wheel width or listed widths, start with lower power cars. 

 

#2, Banning swaps isn't going to be effective, a mismatch in power to weight is the problem not the source of the engine. For the car I run a swapped stock 2.4 into a neon is not going to escape from even a stock motored m20 e30. Moving the swap power to weight target a bunch is probably a better idea, to create a group with a different power to weight target. 

 

#5, Making rules on parts you can't tech easily isn't going to change anything, so I would say some items like springs and bushings might be off the list because of this. But I could see things like limits on what you can repurpose material wise, no drive axle change (FWD to RWD), stock major car dimensions (no baby short neons). 

 

I would run a car in this class. For all the guys who put it down, most of you have chosen a price point that is beyond what the meat and potatoes of the field wants. Given an option for more "classic" champcar prep levels\power\consumption I think many teams who are not the hardcore champ members on the forum would go for it. I started running this with what was basically a stock powered spec neon with stuff cut out of the car. It was top 10 for the races it didn't break. I moved to a swapped, cammed, tuned, different induction\exhaust motor with double the brake consumption and tougher tire bills as the series advanced. Cars prepped to what was mid pack power to weight 6+ years ago would be seconds off pace, but much cheaper to operate. 

 

I would easily cage up another former spec neon I have for the girlfriend and other racers wanting to compete but not at the speed I drive to go run. They would enjoy having others driving at their pace, with similar prep, to have something to race towards.  

 

We could also "rookie stripe" the jr class cars so they don't "race" the fast class cars and the fast class guys know to leave them a wide berth. That might make the racing better for the series; to separate people clearly not racing each other (how many people crying for single class racing complain about the slow cars?)

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I love this idea. But you could expand it to 4 classes. TC for stock body lines and panels, no aero at all, no swaps and 450 points. TCS for limited aero, and swaps. GT for unlimited aero and swaps. And EC remains the same. Run what you bring. 

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1 minute ago, HeelToeNick said:

I love this idea. But you could expand it to 4 classes. TC for stock body lines and panels, no aero at all, no swaps and 450 points. TCS for limited aero, and swaps. GT for unlimited aero and swaps. And EC remains the same. Run what you bring. 

7 hours ago, jakks said:

No

 

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22 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

You guys need a hobby. Damn. Get off the forum.

 

Waste your time improving your cars.

The only way you’d know we were on the Internet is if you’re in the ......   😀

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Oh and most of the people on the Internet this time of day are wasting the bosses time not their own.    Sticking it to the man. Talking about silly racing crap 

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9 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

"...dial the speed back a touch. "

said no racer ever

Uh, I've been saying it for a few years.  In fact, when the new swap ruled came out, I pleaded for it...

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8 hours ago, enginerd said:

Some of the proponents of classes are the 500 point, maxed out cars who are still enough off-pace that a podium is out of reach, but they still want hardware to take home from the track (maybe it’s a millennial thing?). So they want further breakdowns of the competition until there’s a small enough division of cars in “their class” that they can compete for a “podium”.

 

Your idea would implement fewer classes and this group would be dissatisfied. 

I figured you were a millennial.  How old are you?

 

....  I recently found out I am a millennial...

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8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I figured you were a millennial.  How old are you?

 

....  I recently found out I am a millennial...

I am also a millennial.. I said for the irony. I considered adding some "get off my lawn!!" for good measure.

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I had similar suggestion on the “what to do about EC” thread, but with 4 classes

     Stock - OE parts only on VPI listed cars

     Superstock - stock/OE plus aftermarket wheels, exhaust, suspension on VPI listed cars

     Supercar - superstock plus engine swaps, aero,  etc. on VPI lsted cars

     Unlimited - we tech u for safety, and that’s all. No other questions asked.  Doesn’t have to be on VPI list.

Displacement not a consideration, hands out same number of trophies, keeps low cost of entry for new teams (stock),

gives teams a way to keep investment while moving up to (presumably)faster classes, allows everyone a place on the grid

(if you’re silly enough to bring your new M3 to race my beat-to-hell 20 yr old Audi - good luck), everyone still racing for the overall,

but classes actually mean something.

 

would Unlimited likely win the overall most of the time? Yes, yes it would. Just like LMP1 almost always wins Lemans.

would class wins be more meaningful? Yes, yes they would.  Just like Lemans.

Edited by Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com

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Oh, and officials get to refuse any entry at entry time.

if someone says “I’m bringing last year’s Lemans overall winner to your next Champ race”,

our club officials should say “no”.  Or that new Mustang, or that tube-framed roadracer, or...

 

We can, and should, say “no” to entries that are not aligned with the spirit of our club.

That includes “sponsors” - love them, support them with product purchases, but don’t give them automatic entry.

Edited by Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com

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7 hours ago, Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com said:

Oh, and officials get to refuse any entry at entry time.

This creates a huge issue, especially when someone is towing 14hrs each way.  Whatever the rules are they need to be clear with objective interpretation.

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10 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Uh, I've been saying it for a few years.  In fact, when the new swap ruled came out, I pleaded for it...

I see the speed creep.  I think more points need to be assigned to some of the allowed add on parts. 

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@wvumtnbkr and @mostmint That is basically what I meant. After 5 years we now have a new car that is nearly maximzied at 500 points and has pace to run near/at the front. Even though I believe we play within the rules and certainly the spirit of the rules a brand new  team may look at our speed and be scared off. 

 

People may disagree with me, but looking at the amount of 2:15-2:17 fast lap times at WGI it seems thencreep is real. I would think something more in the 2:20 range (a la cars like Simon Says that run really consistently to win) may be a bit more in line with the budget/amateur series. 

 

Dont get me wrong, going fast is awesome! But if they cracked down on some of the points a bit over a broad swath of the field (ie don't single out my car please!!) and I had to take laps and work hard to gain them back over slower cars I'd be fine with that. 

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Interesting responses and thoughts.   Some I expected, actually knew exactly what some would say, some were more of a surprise.  

 

I really think going forward we will need something that is attractive to new teams, and teams that really truly have a low budget.    At some point you will not be able to build an inexpensive race car and even be close to the pace of the pointy end.  

 

To me this is a long term discussion that needs to be taking place.     I'm not sure why the folks running at the top of the field now are so against the idea of a class of cars that would be slower and less costly to build and run.    I don't think we should change anything in the rules for the 500 points cars.    Not saying they are wrong in what they think, I just don't understand it.

 

I would want the rules for the Limited Prep category to be the same, just with some limitations.   #5 in my initial list probably would cause too many complications.   Limiting to 400 points I think takes the m20 e30 out of the class.      No aero, no swaps, and smaller tires I believe would even the playing field pretty well for a lot of platforms.  

 

I'm really not trying to stir the pot or splash an oar in the water,  I just think as the club grows and racers get better at builds and driving something will need to happen to keep "easy access to grassroots racers" in the mission statement.      There are more and more very accomplished racers coming into our fold.  They are not coming over with limiting speed creep in mind.  Its a good thing to to have them coming over, but its also going to get pretty intimidating for the teams that are new or only get 3 weekends a year on track due to budget.

 

 

Edited by JDChristianson
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