Engine Swap Info Needed

[TimS]

I’m trying to understand the engine swap rules with regards to JDM or non US engines and transmissions. Can a non US market engine and transmission be used in Champcar?  

[TiredBirds]

19 minutes ago, TimS said:

I’m trying to understand the engine swap rules with regards to JDM or non US engines and transmissions. Can a non US market engine and transmission be used in Champcar?  

I don't see why not. It goes by HP rating. 

[TimS]

In the rules it says something about engine must come from a vehicle on the vpi list. If it’s an engine from a non US market vehicle does that make it illegal to use in Champcar?  I’m hoping for some clarification before I waste any more of my time on this setup. 

[IPF Racing]

[Team Infiniti]

28 minutes ago, TimS said:

In the rules it says something about engine must come from a vehicle on the vpi list. If it’s an engine from a non US market vehicle does that make it illegal to use in Champcar?  I’m hoping for some clarification before I waste any more of my time on this setup. 

 No JDM only Engine, it must have a USDM counterpart, as stated in the rules above, within 3% HP 

[Snake]

If the engine wasnt available in the US it doesnt matter if the car is on the VPI list or not. 

[Ray Franck]

There are changes in the upcoming BCCR and swap rules . They will be released Sept 1st .

[TimS]

So the answer is you CANNOT use an engine unless it was used in a vehicle in the US?

[TimS]

Ok. I should have waited 3 more days. Story of my life jumping the gun. Thank you for the heads up. I’ll look through the new rules before a follow up question. 

[TimS]

New rules package didn’t make things any clearer. If some variant of this engine was in a US vehicle it’s useable?  If only available in Europe or Japan not useable?

[Team Infiniti]

That’s the way I read it.

[trigun7469]

Quote

4.5.5.1. JDM and EDM engines as a “No Swap value” are allowed provided they have the same displacement and construction as the USDM engine and are within 3% of the USDM advertised horsepower. If using JDM/ EDM engine, must use JDM/EDM advertised horsepower for swap calculator

 

So JDM must have the same displacement and construction as the USDM and be within the 3% advertised Horsepower. They eliminated the swap rule, so my guess is that you can't swap anything above 3% as advertised.

[TimS]

That was how I read it as well. Trying to find an alternative to my two current choices. First is over priced and useless junkyard engine and way overpriced and out of the budget engine rebuild. Oh well back to the drawing board. 

[thewheelerZ]

FWIW, why exactly cant you use a JDM engine for a swap? Yeah yeah, it needs to come from a US car, etc.  But is the intent of the rule to really limit JDM engines that can be had for fairly cheap?  Think the Mazda KL V6 engines.  164 hp in US models, 195-200 in JDM models.  I could easily find a 200 hp swap candidate that would fit in the rules, but shoot, getting it actually swapped would be way harder and way more money.

 

4.5.5.1 speaks directly to a "no swap value" needs to be within 3%.  Has nothing to do with if/when you are using the swap calculator.

[TiredBirds]

30 minutes ago, TimS said:

That was how I read it as well. Trying to find an alternative to my two current choices. First is over priced and useless junkyard engine and way overpriced and out of the budget engine rebuild. Oh well back to the drawing board. 

a small block chevy will fit into anything and is cheap..lol 

[trigun7469]

35 minutes ago, TimS said:

That was how I read it as well. Trying to find an alternative to my two current choices. First is over priced and useless junkyard engine and way overpriced and out of the budget engine rebuild. Oh well back to the drawing board. 

Just write a appeal

[TimS]

195 vs 168 is not within 3%. Still confusing. I’ll continue to save my empty aluminum cans to help offset my ridiculous rebuild cost. Gonna have to be cheaper beer from now on. 

[thewheelerZ]

7 hours ago, TimS said:

195 vs 168 is not within 3%. Still confusing. I’ll continue to save my empty aluminum cans to help offset my ridiculous rebuild cost. Gonna have to be cheaper beer from now on. 

 

Yeah, but you would pay the points for the engine swap (per the calculator formula) with the new HP number. I don't see why this would be an issue in the spirit of the rules. I would email tech with the exact data you have and get a final ruling. 

 

The 3% rule only applies if you don't want to pay points for it. 

[Richard]

58 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

The 3% rule only applies if you don't want to pay points for it. 

 

 I hate to doubt a fellow Canadian but I don't think that this is true. The 3% rule specifically applies to JDM/EDM engines that are being used for the swap rather than the USDM engine so you still have to go through the swap calculator and use the new VPI.

 

Throwing out hp numbers without specific applications is pointless. Just as an example and since I'm a Honda guy you can swap a USDM Integra GSR (B18C1 - 170hp) in to your lowly EF Civic (or any car) and incur the swap charges but you cannot use the JDM version of this motor (B18C - 178hp) because it exceeds the 3% hp maximum.

 

 

[TimS]

I have made both interpretations of the line of the rules myself. I would like to us a JDM engine that is not used in the US but is a variant of an engine used in the US. It would be a swap not a JDM version the engine in the car. Like K20 in a Miata(that is not my plan). Can you use an engine version that is not used in the US?

[thewheelerZ]

8 hours ago, Richard said:

 

 I hate to doubt a fellow Canadian but I don't think that this is true. The 3% rule specifically applies to JDM/EDM engines that are being used for the swap rather than the USDM engine so you still have to go through the swap calculator and use the new VPI.

 

Throwing out hp numbers without specific applications is pointless. Just as an example and since I'm a Honda guy you can swap a USDM Integra GSR (B18C1 - 170hp) in to your lowly EF Civic (or any car) and incur the swap charges but you cannot use the JDM version of this motor (B18C - 178hp) because it exceeds the 3% hp maximum.

 

 

 

4.5.5.1. JDM and EDM engines as a “No Swap value” are allowed provided they have the same displacement and construction as the USDM engine and are within 3% of the USDM advertised horsepower. 

 

Heres an example, the '95 Mazda 626 uses a KL-DE V6 with 164 hp.  The JDM 929/Millenia uses a version of the KL V6 that is basically identical (i think it was even a KL-ZE... but not sure) rated at 164 or similar HP.  That is within 3%.  And therefore, as listed in 4.5.5.1 above, this JDM engine could be used as a NO POINTS swap.

 

Now, there is a JDM version of the KL-ZE rated at 200 hp.  If one were to want to use the 200 hp engine, they could simply claim it in the swap calculator, take ht 50 points plus whatever the PWR adder is applied and run it.  I cant confirm if this is allowed in the rules, BUT.... I dont see how this is against the spirit of the rules at all.

 

In @TimS's case, wanting to use a jdm version and still be claiming the JDM hp for the swap calculator, that falls into the 2nd example.  You need to email tech to get a final ruling, but I dont see why (in the spirit of the rules, not how the rules are written) this shouldnt be allowed.

[Richard]

 4.5.5.1 is a subsection of 4.5.5 which states: Engine being swapped in must come from another vehicle in the VPI table.

 

 The phrase "No swap value" means no extra points if you use a JDM/DEM engine that is within the 3%.

 

 Sadly, variants are allowed which defeats the whole purpose of the rule. All you have to do is convince Tech that the engine's hp, despite it's differing construction, is within 3%.

[TimS]

I’ll try to get a detailed email to National Tech to see if my idea is truly  within the rules. I want to be totally legit with the swap. I’m looking for some economically viable replacement engine not a hidden cheater. Rebuilding what I have does not make sense from a cost standpoint. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by TimS