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Exhaust manifold swaps

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3 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

I asked about ABS module swaps - how many points. Although i hear rumblings that the TAC/BoD has discussed and established a value so I think my question is no longer relevant.

 

I've submitted the same question as related to a platform swap - i.e. is the ABS system required to be swapped if there were differences between the drivetrains.  A strict interpretation would say they have to match the claimed year (or be removed), but I'm seeing a lot of other stuff fly that would imply this might be ok.

 

Either way, I'm still waiting for  response there as well (I assume they need a ruling from the TAC).

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9 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

I've submitted the same question as related to a platform swap - i.e. is the ABS system required to be swapped if there were differences between the drivetrains.  A strict interpretation would say they have to match the claimed year (or be removed), but I'm seeing a lot of other stuff fly that would imply this might be ok.

 

Either way, I'm still waiting for  response there as well (I assume they need a ruling from the TAC).


Good question.. I assume you're trying keep ABS functional, because if not obviously removing ABS is free.

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2 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Good question.. I assume you're trying keep ABS functional, because if not obviously removing ABS is free.

Nothing in the rules says removing the abs is free...nothing says you can remove your passenger seat either for that matter.

Edit: just saying the rules omit a lot of information. Scca had showroom stock so certain classes have to specify it's ok to carpet/dash/seats. No such clarity in champ.

Edited by morganf
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37 minutes ago, morganf said:

Nothing in the rules says removing the abs is free...nothing says you can remove your passenger seat either for that matter.

lol...what?

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3 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Good question.. I assume you're trying keep ABS functional, because if not obviously removing ABS is free.

 

Mainly, I just want to keep my options open.  I have the correct ABS unit from a donor car, but the plumbing and wiring are different enough that it's likely not worth my trouble to replace it with the rest of the drivetrain.  If the "swap" version isn't free I'll most likely just pull it all out.

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14 hours ago, morganf said:

Nothing in the rules says removing the abs is free...nothing says you can remove your passenger seat either for that matter.

Edit: just saying the rules omit a lot of information. Scca had showroom stock so certain classes have to specify it's ok to carpet/dash/seats. No such clarity in champ.

If it doesn't say you can't in the rules, then you can.

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Back on the subject of manifolds, it seems that many are misremembering or are making false equivalencies and then inaccurate conclusions are drawn.

 

The rule states: 4.7.4. Exhaust systems downstream of the header/exhaust manifold (from the collector back) are open and do not count towards total points.

 

This means: You can add mufflers / tubing / cats / etc. after the manifold for zero points. You can also remove mufflers / tubing / cats / etc. after the manifold for zero points. 

THIS DOES NOT SAY: "you can replace catalytic converters and the pieces that they are incorporated into with non-stock pieces for zero points".

 

It seems that some have made the leap of saying "well, you can remove the cat if it's after the manifold, which means that removing / replacing all cats no matter where they are is 0 points, which means you should be able to remove the cat if it's part of the manifold, and since that would take some work, I need to be able to replace the whole manifold for 0 points". This is absurd.

Edited by enginerd
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13 hours ago, enginerd said:

Back on the subject of manifolds, it seems that many are misremembering or are making false equivalencies and then inaccurate conclusions are drawn.

 

The rule states: 4.7.4. Exhaust systems downstream of the header/exhaust manifold (from the collector back) are open and do not count towards total points.

 

This means: You can add mufflers / tubing / cats / etc. after the manifold for zero points. You can also remove mufflers / tubing / cats / etc. after the manifold for zero points. 

THIS DOES NOT SAY: "you can replace catalytic converters and the pieces that they are incorporated into with non-stock pieces for zero points".

 

It seems that some have made the leap of saying "well, you can remove the cat if it's after the manifold, which means that removing / replacing all cats no matter where they are is 0 points, which means you should be able to remove the cat if it's part of the manifold, and since that would take some work, I need to be able to replace the whole manifold for 0 points". This is absurd.

Yet despite this, Tech just couldn't resist yet another ruling that seems to go against the written rule and give one car a freebie.  🤷‍♂️.  I guess now with the knowledge base it will be easier to find out about the "special" rules.  I think we can all go erase the line in our logbook that shows points for headers.  So happy to have this points back.

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I emailed El Jefe himself and got a 2-part reason for the manifold swap on e46. 
1) While he stopped short of saying that it’s a safety concern, the presence of a (very hot) catalytic converter in the engine bay is not good.
2) The e36 manifold is the same less the cats

 

I strongly disagree with point 2 just by looking at pictures, but there you have it.

 

I brought up the question of which of the e36 manifolds (there’s more than 1) would be acceptable. He admitted that we need clarification there and at his direction I have now submitted a tech desk ticket requesting a BMW part number for and picture of the acceptable 0 point replacement manifold.

 

 

[edit] I may still submit a petition targeting this ruling. There are “spirit of the series” ways to deal with cats in the engine bay... header wrap / heat shield / gut the platinum stuff. A higher flowing exhaust manifold should not be a 0 point mod for lazy / uncreative / checkbook builders who are scared of some heat. 

Edited by enginerd
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I’m sure we could get some quantifiable data from James Clay on the matter. If the e36 manifold is not a significant hp (less than 5) advantage over an e46 OEM manifold that has the cats cut out then I’m not sure what the issue is. To me, an OEM manifold is a lot safer and causes less issues than one that’s been cut up and re-welded. Even our e30 manifold with the flex in it has had issues. We blew out the OEM flex and had an aftermarket one welded in by an exhaust shop and it lasted less than a year. We ran the last 3 hours of Sunday’s Barber race with a hole in the flex.

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20 minutes ago, jakks said:

I’m sure we could get some quantifiable data from James Clay on the matter. If the e36 manifold is not a significant hp (less than 5) advantage over an e46 OEM manifold that has the cats cut out then I’m not sure what the issue is. To me, an OEM manifold is a lot safer and causes less issues than one that’s been cut up and re-welded. Even our e30 manifold with the flex in it has had issues. We blew out the OEM flex and had an aftermarket one welded in by an exhaust shop and it lasted less than a year. We ran the last 3 hours of Sunday’s Barber race with a hole in the flex.

 

The flex in the e30 exhaust is after the manifold, not part of it. I cut that out and put in a vibrant flex, also put in a flex further downstream after merging tubes. No exhaust issues in well over 100 hours except for curbing induced denting.

Edited by enginerd
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1 hour ago, jakks said:

If the e36 manifold is not a significant hp (less than 5) advantage over an e46 OEM manifold that has the cats cut out then I’m not sure what the issue is. 

The issue is that is sets a bad precedent and undermines the stability of the rules. 

If close coupled cats are a safety concern then we should add a rule to address that, don't go handing out exemptions to the fixed parts list for specific platforms.

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12 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

The issue is that is sets a bad precedent and undermines the stability of the rules. 

If close coupled cats are a safety concern then we should add a rule to address that, don't go handing out exemptions to the fixed parts list for specific platforms.

Precisely. I think this would go nicely in the car prep / safety section along with removing window glass, air bags, etc.
 

example:

X.X.X - due to high heat and fire risk resulting from catalytic converters, it is recommended/required? that they be removed. If catalytic converters are incorporated into the stock exhaust manifold, the entire manifold may be replaced with similar unit from that model’s prior generation with no added points. Refer to appendix Y.Y.Y. for the specific allowed part number for each model. 

Edited by enginerd
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I was thinking we should allow anyone to swap an OE manifold from any other car on the VPI list for 10 pts.   Any manifold or header outside of that would be 25 pts.

This would apply to swaps and ram horns as well.

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2 minutes ago, Grufton said:

I was thinking we should allow anyone to swap an OE manifold from any other car on the VPI list for 10 pts.   Any manifold or header outside of that would be 25 pts.

This would apply to swaps and ram horns as well.


I agree with this.

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3 hours ago, enginerd said:

Precisely. I think this would go nicely in the car prep / safety section along with removing window glass, air bags, etc.
 

example:

X.X.X - due to high heat and fire risk resulting from catalytic converters, it is recommended/required? that they be removed. If catalytic converters are incorporated into the stock exhaust manifold, the entire manifold may be replaced with similar unit from that model’s prior generation with no added points. Refer to appendix Y.Y.Y. for the specific allowed part number for each model. 

Disagree with the entire manifold wording, if it can be cut out and replaced with pipe it should be 0pts, if it can not be removed  (highly doubtful ) then a car or engine specific ruling can be publicly made.

 

What is so wrong with making a rule to fit one off situations?

 

 

Edited by Team Infiniti
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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

 

What is so wrong with making a rule to fit one off situations?

 

 

 

Nothing apparently.  That's why rule 4.5.6 only applies to BMWs, and not to Porches, Mustangs, MR2's or Eclipses.

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3 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

What is so wrong with making a rule to fit one off situations?

1. It can affect one car positively, which means that affects all the others negatively.

2. Making a ruling outside of what is written in the rules should go through the same petition process as any other proposed rule change.

3. Making a ruling and then not making it public is wrong.

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On 1/27/2020 at 8:39 AM, dimitri.mariutto said:

If it doesn't say you can't in the rules, then you can.

 

Partially true. If it doesn't say you can't, you can, but there will be an arbitrary point value added. This here is my main gripe with how the rules currently are written. The Knowledge base is curing this, albeit slowly.

 

22 hours ago, Grufton said:

I was thinking we should allow anyone to swap an OE manifold from any other car on the VPI list for 10 pts.   Any manifold or header outside of that would be 25 pts.

This would apply to swaps and ram horns as well.

 

I like this. I like this a lot.

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My tech desk request has been resolved. No need to worry about whatever fancy manifold would have been allowed under the old “any e36 manifold” rule, the 325i model “pair” (front part number / rear part number) is all that is allowed. Now I just need to write that petition to pull this exemption back completely :)

 

The approved factory BMW exhaust manifolds that ChampCar will allow on an E46 for zero points are:
- part # 11 62 1 744 250
- part # 11 62 1 744 251

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On 1/31/2020 at 2:46 PM, wvumtnbkr said:

Ha, the way that is written, you aren't allowed to run the stock e46 manifolds.

Seems legit *if* they are a safety concern. 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I would have thought they could also allow the OBD1 cast manifolds from the M50, but whatever. I think the specified ones are the same that Spec E46 uses (probably a decent power bump too)

 

If we want to be picky, this rule should probably be applied in the context of the engine instead of the chassis. Other M54 cars or cars with M54 swaps should get the same treatment. 

 

I still think a ruling on close coupled cats in general would be better than to keep updating this with an endless list of OEM replacement parts that are allowed(required?). What if some newer cars don't have an alternate OEM part that fits that doesn't have a cat? Maybe that will be considered by the time it hits the BCCR and this is just a stopgap.

Edited by ABR-Glen
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