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Coolant tank 5pts?


turbogrill
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3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

Thanks. Shouldnt that be in the 2020 rule book?!?!?

The date of that article is 2/27/2020. It’s such an uncommon item I don’t think it needs to be in the rulebook.... falls under the category of “any non OE part can get a value assigned by tech.”

Edited by enginerd
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3 hours ago, enginerd said:

The date of that article is 2/27/2020. It’s such an uncommon item I don’t think it needs to be in the rulebook.... falls under the category of “any non OE part can get a value assigned by tech.”

 

Every NC Miata will do it...

 

But I guess you are right it's an non OEM part, so the tech was right in giving me. Value.

 

I guess the money part doesn't make sense now I need to buy a new plastic tank for $80 after each race instead of keeping my $200 metal tank for ever.

 

Thanks

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4 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Every NC Miata will do it...

 

But I guess you are right it's an non OEM part, so the tech was right in giving me. Value.

 

I guess the money part doesn't make sense now I need to buy a new plastic tank for $80 after each race instead of keeping my $200 metal tank for ever.

 

Thanks

 

No, you can keep your fancy metal tank, you just need to pay 5 points for it.

 

If it means not having a tank fail mid race, or having to buy a new tank every race, then it's probably well worth the 5 points.

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8 hours ago, turbogrill said:

now I need to buy a new plastic tank for $80 after each race

What kind of car?!?

Based on everything I know of turning wrenches all my life, unless there is inherent issues to a certain model like UV degradation where the sun shines through the hood/fender crack, or the occasional random fail, the pressure bottle frequently lasts the life of the vehicle.

 

Personal observation strictly from racing (mechanicking aside) we have no pressure vessel but do run plastic tanks.

I had folks telling me plastic tank rads fail often and without notice, HA, over 8 years of racing, podiuming, USED junkyard sourced plastic/alum rads, excluding accident damage, we have had no tank failures, now that I am thinking about it,  the # of failures since moving to regular parts store units have increased considerably, mostly due to poor pinches @ the tank that only drip when cold but seal hot(easily fixed with pliers), the latest was debris screen rubbing the core.

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9 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Every NC Miata will do it...

 

But I guess you are right it's an non OEM part, so the tech was right in giving me. Value.

 

I guess the money part doesn't make sense now I need to buy a new plastic tank for $80 after each race instead of keeping my $200 metal tank for ever.

 

Thanks

Consider the make of car that you get the plastic tank from.

 

For instance, I would expect the tank scrounged from a Mercedes to be a much more reliable part than one from a Skoda.

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9 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

No, you can keep your fancy metal tank, you just need to pay 5 points for it.

 

If it means not having a tank fail mid race, or having to buy a new tank every race, then it's probably well worth the 5 points.

 

The whole point system is to save money, in this case it's going to cost more to be less on points. So the rule is broken here. But I get it, it's hard to make the rules perfect.

 

Anyway, i don't think it makes sense but I accept the rules. It's technically in the rules but not as explicit.

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5 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

What kind of car?!?

Based on everything I know of turning wrenches all my life, unless there is inherent issues to a certain model like UV degradation where the sun shines through the hood/fender crack, or the occasional random fail, the pressure bottle frequently lasts the life of the vehicle.

 

Personal observation strictly from racing (mechanicking aside) we have no pressure vessel but do run plastic tanks.

I had folks telling me plastic tank rads fail often and without notice, HA, over 8 years of racing, podiuming, USED junkyard sourced plastic/alum rads, excluding accident damage, we have had no tank failures, now that I am thinking about it,  the # of failures since moving to regular parts store units have increased considerably, mostly due to poor pinches @ the tank that only drip when cold but seal hot(easily fixed with pliers), the latest was debris screen rubbing the core.

 

All I can say is that it's common for them to fail. Every race is probably a little paranoid but....sucks to pack up and go home.

5 hours ago, mender said:

Consider the make of car that you get the plastic tank from.

 

For instance, I would expect the tank scrounged from a Mercedes to be a much more reliable part than one from a Skoda.

 

Hmm interesting point! Never thought about that

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18 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

What happens if it fails, some water leaks on the ground? 

When the car stops at pit stops it can get a little hotter than normal and spit water into the tank.  When it cools back down, it sucks out of the tank.

 

If the tank is cracked, it will suck air and your coolant level will get lower and lower.

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4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

If the tank cracks the cooling system will loose pressure and the temperature will spike. Unless you are very quick on catching it your engine might be toast.

 

So you don't have to loose much water it's the pressure that matters. 

Depends on if your cap is on the radiator (like my system) or if it's on the tank.

 

You described the issue if it's on the tank.

 

And actually, the coolant temp would stay the same (or even lower to 212f) it would just boil immediately which would cause loss of heat transfer and end up at the same place...  a ruined engine.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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2 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Depends on if your cap is on the radiator (like my system) or if it's on the tank.

 

You described the issue if it's on the tank.

 

And actually, the coolant temp would stay the same (or even lower to 212f) it would just boil immediately which would cause loss of heat transfer and end up at the same place...  a ruined engine.

 

It's point for any resorvoair that isnt stock, overflow, power steering, expansion...etc

 

You are absolutely right about the temp, but it will jump to 212 right? 

I remeber on one engine where this happened the temp spiked high (probably 212), then it went down. It went down because the coolant disappeared so the sensor was measuring air....

 

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1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

The whole point system is to save money, in this case it's going to cost more to be less on points.

 

The points system is not really designed to control costs directly anymore.  Hasn't been for quite a while.  The points system is meant to control speed, and only in a roundabout way control cost.

 

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Really don't understand why the car would be assessed points solely on the canard which is "Non-OEM".  There were tons of non-OEM parts I observed at the race this weekend which were not assessed points.  Hoes, belts, clamps, vents, misc hardware, the list can go on and on.  The plastic on these tanks are in fact known to fail due to the expansion/contraction and heat cycling.  Changing to a metal tank does not enhance cooling, does not add any performance but can save a motor and the resulting spill on the race track.  Heck, it weighs 3X stock which is its own penalty.

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9 minutes ago, JohnB said:

Really don't understand why the car would be assessed points solely on the canard which is "Non-OEM".  There were tons of non-OEM parts I observed at the race this weekend which were not assessed points.  Hoes, belts, clamps, vents, misc hardware, the list can go on and on.  The plastic on these tanks are in fact known to fail due to the expansion/contraction and heat cycling.  Changing to a metal tank does not enhance cooling, does not add any performance but can save a motor and the resulting spill on the race track.  Heck, it weighs 3X stock which is its own penalty.

 

Same is true for oil coolers, accumulators, diff coolers, and plenty of other items.  If you can push the car harder, longer, then a performance value can be argued.

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22 minutes ago, JohnB said:

Really don't understand why the car would be assessed points solely on the canard which is "Non-OEM".  There were tons of non-OEM parts I observed at the race this weekend which were not assessed points.  Hoes, belts, clamps, vents, misc hardware, the list can go on and on.  The plastic on these tanks are in fact known to fail due to the expansion/contraction and heat cycling.  Changing to a metal tank does not enhance cooling, does not add any performance but can save a motor and the resulting spill on the race track.  Heck, it weighs 3X stock which is its own penalty.

Nobody is stopping anybody from doing the easy button of buying the metal tank.

 

They also aren't stopping is from getting a plastic tank from another car for zero points.

 

Nobody was talking about it needing to be oem from that exact car.

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I'm just telling you what the ruling was.  It was based on that the metal was a superior material so it was charged.

 

If they wanna charge for a different plastic tank, fine.  I'll just use an old oil container like we did in the past.

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10 hours ago, turbogrill said:

I don't understand the reasoning why an OEM tank from another car would be zero points. 

An OEM engine from an another car is at least 50pts.

 

The metal tank makes it's cheaper, safer and less work. I would argue it should be encouraged.

 

Then this is something you should be writing a petition on, and/or discussing with @National Tech.

 

I am torn on the subject, and can see if from both sides, but since I don't have a pressurized tank factory on my car, its not a rule that really applies to me, so I've no dog in the fight.

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I don't thinks this is going to change, it's the same with certain hubs. You can replace hubs after every race or just get beefy aftermarket ones. Saves you money in the long run and makes it safe.

 

I am sure there is another side of this that I don't see. It's not a big deal, I have the points as of now :) (We are exactly at 500! We where 495 before the race, so that margin helped us)

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