“Adjustable Shocks”

[petawawarace]

So with the new rules released, there’s the opportunity to use some pretty high end shocks for “zero” points”.  You can have Penske or Ohlins shocks made now with remote reservoirs that are free.  I think this potentially opens up a huge can of worms.

I submitted a ticket to the tech desk to clarify something, but what do you guys think?  
The rules say “ Shock absorbers / struts with damping/
rebound adjustment, 25 pts per corner”. 
I assume that the intention here was to allow the typical non-adjustable but revalveable shocks. However, those all have gas charging capabilities.  The amount of pressure that one puts in the gas chamber of a shock will affect its dampening/rebound characteristics.   Therefore, the way the rule is written, any shock with a scrader valve or needle valve for gas pressure adjustment is due for 25pts. 
If it’s enforced this way, I think it’s great, and will limit the stupid expensive shocks. But if that’s the case, there’s a huge hole in how the rules were written. 

[wvumtnbkr]

I would call that adjustable and at least 25 pts.

[MR2 Biohazard]

What car in the series has a penske with a remote reserve and is not adjustable? Searching the Penske site I see the high end Penske's with an adjustment knob from single to triple, but non that are not adjustable with a remote reserve?  The only shock I see from them that is non adjustable is their budget 7500 series that has that option and 7120 formula V with no adjustments.

[the5]

5 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

What car in the series has a penske with a remote reserve and is not adjustable? Searching the Penske site I see the high end Penske's with an adjustment knob from single to triple, but non that are not adjustable with a remote reserve?  The only shock I see from them that is non adjustable is their budget 7500 series that has that option and 7120 formula V with no adjustments.

 

You can Build any Penske to have a remote Resivior. Would be custom but 100% doable. 

[oddcarnut]

This clearly makes Penske race shocks for MX-5 free as they are not adjustable.  Such shocks cost more than the track oriented coiler/adjustable shock package that came on our car and works adequately enough that I can't justify buying other replacements. So we get a crap load of points for stuff that is less expensive than what can now be free.  Another example of this no longer being focused on low cost as it once was...

[petawawarace]

I just heard back from the tech desk. Having the ability to adjust gas pressure is considered “adjustable” and therefore 25pts.  
This is very GOOD news to keep costs down.  This basically means that pretty much any rebuildable shock is 25 pts.  
 

[JDChristianson]

1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

I just heard back from the tech desk. Having the ability to adjust gas pressure is considered “adjustable” and therefore 25pts.  
This is very GOOD news to keep costs down.  This basically means that pretty much any rebuildable shock is 25 pts.  
 

how does this keep cost down?  Looks to me like a properly adjustable shock is 25 points too.  We will most likely just stay with the bilstein's   Until other things get evened out, there is no point in throwing bunches of cash at the cars.   Just going to have fun.  

 

[petawawarace]

51 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

how does this keep cost down?  Looks to me like a properly adjustable shock is 25 points too.  We will most likely just stay with the bilstein's   Until other things get evened out, there is no point in throwing bunches of cash at the cars.   Just going to have fun.  

 

Almost all of the higher $$ “non adjustable” shocks still have a gas charging option.  With this ruling, it will keep those options out (unless you’re willing to pay 25pts).  

[wvumtnbkr]

2 hours ago, oddcarnut said:

This clearly makes Penske race shocks for MX-5 free as they are not adjustable.  Such shocks cost more than the track oriented coiler/adjustable shock package that came on our car and works adequately enough that I can't justify buying other replacements. So we get a crap load of points for stuff that is less expensive than what can now be free.  Another example of this no longer being focused on low cost as it once was...

The penskes have been allowed since they came out.

[turbogrill]

Can someone send a link to these nonadjustable mega shocks? Can't find them

 

(Not the spec mx5 shocks but the ones mentioned in this thread)

[MR2 Biohazard]

If Penske can make custom items then I would think they could make a shock without a valve to gill the gas. You would just get it and have them rebuild it to the valving you would want. This would cost more ofcourse, but be within the rules.

 

When rules come forth it shows that teams with big money will get even more of an advantage. Currently a team can have a bilstien custom valved to what they want for a certain track and have a different valving for another track.

[petawawarace]

1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

Can someone send a link to these nonadjustable mega shocks? Can't find them

 

(Not the spec mx5 shocks but the ones mentioned in this thread)

These are easy to find.  But they will also custom build you anything you ask for.  $700 a corner seems excessive for Champ.  
 

The other issue that these types of shocks allow is the user to rebuild the shocks and change dampening rates and profiles at the track.  So on a test day, you can rebuild these between sessions and fine tune the car. That also means keeping an assortment of pistons, shims, bleeders, a gas rig, etc on hand. If you don’t think teams will do this to make their cars faster, your mistaken. 

[petawawarace]

37 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

If Penske can make custom items then I would think they could make a shock without a valve to gill the gas. You would just get it and have them rebuild it to the valving you would want. This would cost more ofcourse, but be within the rules.

 

When rules come forth it shows that teams with big money will get even more of an advantage. Currently a team can have a bilstien custom valved to what they want for a certain track and have a different valving for another track.

The difference here, is that you can rebuild them yourself at the track during a test day. You can try all different piston rates, shim stacks etc and find the best ones suited for your car.  
If you can’t recharge the gas yourself, then you can’t rebuild them easily. You’d need to buy multiple shocks and would cost way more. 

[MR2 Biohazard]

5 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

The difference here, is that you can rebuild them yourself at the track during a test day. You can try all different piston rates, shim stacks etc and find the best ones suited for your car.  
If you can’t recharge the gas yourself, then you can’t rebuild them easily. You’d need to buy multiple shocks and would cost way more. 

So the teams with big money can do this then.

[atxe30]

why do people think adjustable damping is so exotic? you get adjustable damping on street level coil-overs at this point with a 4 corner set costing a thousand bucks.

 

i went through this when i built the e30 and the billies were unobtanium due to supply chain poop show. twist adjust dampening has been on moto's, mountain bikes, etc forever, it's just not that big a deal nor that expensive.

 

this could be really simple rule: 1) no remote reservoirs, 2) 2x cost limiter on dealer purchased OEM, 3) single adjust only, i.e. twist adjust on dampening or schrader for gas adjust (not both).

 

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

13 hours ago, atxe30 said:

why do people think adjustable damping is so exotic? you get adjustable damping on street level coil-overs at this point with a 4 corner set costing a thousand bucks.

 

i went through this when i built the e30 and the billies were unobtanium due to supply chain poop show. twist adjust dampening has been on moto's, mountain bikes, etc forever, it's just not that big a deal nor that expensive.

 

this could be really simple rule: 1) no remote reservoirs, 2) 2x cost limiter on dealer purchased OEM, 3) single adjust only, i.e. twist adjust on dampening or schrader for gas adjust (not both).

 

 

The interesting thing as almost all single adjustable shock setups are not all that great. Bilsteins revaled would be better in almost all cases. The single adjustable is nice in that it gives inexpensive options to teams to have a coil over and shock combo that might not have a good bilstein option.

 

Also, a good portion of drivers and teams do not know how to tune for adjustable shocks anyway. They can learn, but how much faster will it actually be? 25 points is equal to 100 total, which is equal to a swap with like 30-50 hp increase in most cases, or a turbo setup. When you consider the amount of points to the possible speed increase it just does not make sense.  A simple single adjustable will give teams affordable options.

[turbogrill]

46 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

The interesting thing as almost all single adjustable shock setups are not all that great. Bilsteins revaled would be better in almost all cases. The single adjustable is nice in that it gives inexpensive options to teams to have a coil over and shock combo that might not have a good bilstein option.

 

Also, a good portion of drivers and teams do not know how to tune for adjustable shocks anyway. They can learn, but how much faster will it actually be? 25 points is equal to 100 total, which is equal to a swap with like 30-50 hp increase in most cases, or a turbo setup. When you consider the amount of points to the possible speed increase it just does not make sense.  A simple single adjustable will give teams affordable options.

 

For our NC Miata:

 

- 0pts, Bilstein + loweringsprings. Almost $1000

- 0pts, Revalved Bilstein+ custom springs, $2500

- 40 pts, Penske non-adjustable, $1956

- 100 pts, MeisterR single adjustable, $1200

- 100 pts, Penske single adjustable, $2196

- 100 pts, Ohlins single adjustable, $2200

 

MesiterR clubports are almost the same price as B8+lowering springs, also easier install and probably better.

Should also mention that with the Bilsteins we need a thick sway bar (20pts + $200)

 

 

[Gkuhn41]

The board meeting went like this:

 

Non Adjustable = 0 points

Single Adjustable = 10 points

Double = 25 points

 

I even reached out to verify this and was told that was correct. The new rules do not read that way. I sent an email out to clarify this today.

 

I guess none of this matters when we swap our single adjustable coilovers for some billies on the front anyways but i figured id try and see what was up with it. 

[turbogrill]

1 hour ago, Gkuhn41 said:

The board meeting went like this:

 

Non Adjustable = 0 points

Single Adjustable = 10 points

Double = 25 points

 

I even reached out to verify this and was told that was correct. The new rules do not read that way. I sent an email out to clarify this today.

 

I guess none of this matters when we swap our single adjustable coilovers for some billies on the front anyways but i figured id try and see what was up with it. 

 

What about height adjustable?

 

For 2020:

Non dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 0pts

Non dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 40pts

Dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 100pts (The Koni yellow)

Dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 100 pts

 

 

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

25 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

What about height adjustable?

 

For 2020:

Non dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 0pts

Non dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 40pts

Dampening adjustable, non height adjustable = 100pts (The Koni yellow)

Dampening adjustable, height adjustable = 100 pts

 

 

 

I am thinking it adds to it. Adjustable height 40 points, single adjustable 40 points, 80 points total. I see it as 80 point for single adjustable coil overs most can buy.

[atxe30]

ok, i think you all missed the entire underlying point of my assertion. to be blunt:  WHO CARES about height?!?!?!?! run coil-overs like every damn street tuner has been doing for (n) years, where n > 10, and adjust height to whatever the hell you want....

 

the problem here to be specific is the ticky-tack point b.s., at least for me. and as indicated in the other thread, i'm not gonna build a car for this series while this situation exists, because i'm still a little bitter about the last go around, particularly after this indy thing.

 

but whatever, shouting into the void, blah, blah, blah.....

 

[Black Magic]

On 10/18/2020 at 3:19 PM, petawawarace said:

I just heard back from the tech desk. Having the ability to adjust gas pressure is considered “adjustable” and therefore 25pts.  
This is very GOOD news to keep costs down.  This basically means that pretty much any rebuildable shock is 25 pts.  
 

 

I think this is terrible news.

 

It just means that any shock that is easily rebuildable by a novice end user is 25 points. There are plenty of specialty tools and methods to regas a rebuilt damper without adding a Schrader valve. 

 

Anyone that wants the ability to end user rebuild their shocks without adding a Schrader valve let me know. Looks like I could make some $ selling gas charging stations or gas needle conversion setups. Instead I would have hoped you would just drill and tap your shock body for a $3 Schrader valve.....

 

BTW, gas charge does not change damping force unless you were cavitating your damper. It would not live long in this condition without enormous fade and potential failure of the shims. Gas charge does change the "gas force" of the damper, which is an alternative to changing the preload in the springs (anyone who has had "gas helper" shocks or air bags on a truck would have seen this effect firsthand). 

[petawawarace]

1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

 

I think this is terrible news.

 

It just means that any shock that is easily rebuildable by a novice end user is 25 points. There are plenty of specialty tools and methods to regas a rebuilt damper without adding a Schrader valve. 

 

Anyone that wants the ability to end user rebuild their shocks without adding a Schrader valve let me know. Looks like I could make some $ selling gas charging stations or gas needle conversion setups. Instead I would have hoped you would just drill and tap your shock body for a $3 Schrader valve.....

 

BTW, gas charge does not change damping force unless you were cavitating your damper. It would not live long in this condition without enormous fade and potential failure of the shims. Gas charge does change the "gas force" of the damper, which is an alternative to changing the preload in the springs (anyone who has had "gas helper" shocks or air bags on a truck would have seen this effect firsthand). 

I meant that it was good news from a position of stopping bigger $$ shocks from being used.  
 

 I do agree with you in the fact that it will hurt guys from rebuilding themselves. But I take this ruling as it not only being a Schrader valve.  A needle valve or similar won’t be any different.  

 

I think this rule (and the open caliper rule) is a mistake.  There are many ways they could have controlled the costs, and gotten rid of the 2x rule. They chose not to.  

[Gkuhn41]

On 10/21/2020 at 3:37 PM, MR2 Biohazard said:

I am thinking it adds to it. Adjustable height 40 points, single adjustable 40 points, 80 points total. I see it as 80 point for single adjustable coil overs most can buy.

 

I have documentation to back this up. I was told at one time if we pay for adjustable shock we get the perch for free (from tech). I disagreed and submitted for clarification and it came back they should be valued separately always and I agree with that. Spring/Perch separate from Shock/Strut.

[Black Magic]

On 10/24/2020 at 7:04 PM, petawawarace said:

I meant that it was good news from a position of stopping bigger $$ shocks from being used.  
 

 I do agree with you in the fact that it will hurt guys from rebuilding themselves. But I take this ruling as it not only being a Schrader valve.  A needle valve or similar won’t be any different.  

 

I think this rule (and the open caliper rule) is a mistake.  There are many ways they could have controlled the costs, and gotten rid of the 2x rule. They chose not to.  

 

Some OE style shocks use needle valve fillers of one variety or another, I think this gets hard to enforce  beyond "Schrader valve or not". Same for threaded end cap shocks, which you can rebuild in the field using gas bags or with a pressure chamber (looks like a case that the shock goes in while you close it up under gas pressure)

 

That said, sending them off isn't terribly expensive and would be the way most teams go. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Black Magic