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Dry Break System


MR2 Biohazard
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Since dry break fuel systems are now legal does anyone plan on doing it? I can fill fast now, but if I went with the 5 gallon Hunsaker with the 2.25" nozzle it should make it much faster. I do wonder how much faster it will be in reality. Currently I can dump each can in about 20-30 seconds and takes about 5 seconds to bend the hose in as my current setup goes down to a 1" opening. I figure about 1:30-2:00 to fill and a minute to get in and out.  With the dry break we could dump our 3 cans in at around 30-45 seconds thinking each can with the larger opening would dump in less than 10 seconds each and no time needed to line up the hose and bend it in. Just grab a can and push it on and good. It should save us a good minute plus or more per stop. 

 

I do have a question on how it can work also. The dry break connector is higher than the tank, but not as high as the discriminator valve, which is the vent line. The 5 gallon gas can will be higher than the discriminator valve though. I currently also have a vent that goes to the fill tube inside towards the top and when I see some fuel come out of that I know my tank is full and stop filling so I do not overfill it. If I use the dry brake wouldn't the fuel fill all the way up to the discriminator valve then with the sealed system? I guess that could be good to get all the extra fuel in the vent line and all the way up the fuel fill tube. That might add like 1/2 gallon or more. Does anyone see an issue with the fuel all the way up to the discriminator valve and use the valve as a stop until fuel is used up? I do wonder if some would splash past it if that full, currently I do not fill that much so it is not an issue. I do not want to add a dry brake and then have fuel coming out the rear as that defeats some of the purpose of being safe with it. 

 

The items needed

2.25" female fill neck adapter $265

https://hunsakerusa.com/collections/accesories/products/redhead-female-big-bore-dry-break-with-2-25-or-3-0aluminum-barbed-bulb

 

5 Gallon jug 2.25" 45degree $429 - I could do it with 3 jugs, but would probably be best to have 6 so you have two pit stops worth ready.

https://hunsakerusa.com/collections/accesories/products/redhead-female-big-bore-dry-break-with-2-25-or-3-0aluminum-barbed-bulb

 

 

I see it as about $1500 to $3000 to add it. Anyone want to add me to their Santa list. A good debate on what to spend winter money on. Go dry break and then go with sticky tires that do not last a day.  hmmm. If I had money I would not even give it another thought and do it without question. Anyone with big pockets want to drive for me and help a buddy out?

 

It should give us enough time to change all 4 tires, even with two battery cordless impacts. I was thinking a jack person, one person on each wheel on one side, on and off in about 1:30 per side. Each tire guy brings a tire and cordless impact. Jack guy jacks up the car, then grabs the tires coming off and throws them over the wall and gets a new one to setup on the other side. He should be able to grab both and then go to the other side to jack it up when they are one on one side.  If our pit in and out time is around 1 minute by the time you get the timer, drive down and drive out. 1 minute in/out, 1 min fuel, 3 min tire change. I could do it all in right at 5 minutes I think. It would be tight, but could happen I think.

 

Thoughts?  

Edited by MR2 Biohazard
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1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

lots of money, really a lot of money    How many races have you lost because fueling took an extra 45 to 90 seconds?   Continuing to think about the wording for a petition to limit the tire changes during a fuel stop.   

Make sure your petition doesn’t interfere with safety, many tire changes happen  during fueling when cordes  are discovered or a flat spot is confessed. 
I was supposed to be conferring with @Biohazard but time has not permitted me to do so, I would like for you to join the brainstorm

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1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

lots of money, really a lot of money    How many races have you lost because fueling took an extra 45 to 90 seconds?   Continuing to think about the wording for a petition to limit the tire changes during a fuel stop.   

I have not lost any, yet, because we use RS4, but with most of the top teams going to RE71R we might have to and change tires. We will just do half or less the races we have in the past.  If we choose to go with RE71R or other tire then we would need to look into changing them often and if that is the case then if we did not pit in under 5 min we would lose. Racing Champcar now can get really really expensive.

 

I have come to the conclusion, with all the petitions denied and how so many members are adamant about having the fast tires that nothing is going to change. Simple as that. No one will take as stand. The new people running for the BOD have basically said the same thing so I do not see any change coming in the future either.  Put forth a change tire rule and most are not on board. Most members want it as the status quo as all I see and here is change nothing ever, change is bad, change is terrible, keep the rules stable, leave it alone, stability, no free anything, except tires, do not touch my tires, how dare you even think about changing my tire rule. In coming to this conclusion the only way to keep up is to spend and spend. I have to decide if I can afford to be competitive in the coming seasons and is it worth trying to be.  Do I plan to change tires and therefore need a dry break system to have the time to do it? Winter season of spending is the debate I am trying to answer right now for myself. I really should just drive for others and then do not have to decide these things anymore, but then my drivers are out rides so I feel an obligation to them.

 

2 hours ago, shutupracing said:

break

fixed,  thanks. I can never get those right. Brakes brake the car until they break and then you do not brake, but if you use a dry break system you can be fast and go back out on track to brake right away so you do not break in the pits while using the dry break system and we hope we do not spill on our brakes. Maybe that is right, I sure do not know anymore. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Make sure your petition doesn’t interfere with safety, many tire changes happen  during fueling when cordes  are discovered or a flat spot is confessed. 
I was supposed to be conferring with @Biohazard but time has not permitted me to do so, I would like for you to join the brainstorm

Hey wait a minute, petitions are not due for a while so we can confer when we both have time.  We just need to all come up with an idea. The only issue is that is if a good portion of teams want to be able to change tires and want to run the fast tires that wear out will it really be time spent and not just wasted. I am thinking that the members and BOD have spoken and tires are a free item with zero points and you can spend all you want on them. It might be a join them or be left behind scenario. The days of cost effective racing might have left the stable. Dry Break system and bringing 3 sets of a tires a weekend is where it is going.

 

I am not trying to be Mr. Pessimistic today, I think I just woke up today and realized the past is the past and the future needs to be embraced or I will be left behind.

 

What I find ironic is that the talk about "no more free items", yet we have free tires and they are by far the biggest example of speed creep we have had in years, plus the cost to run them is opposite of what this entire series is founded on, being affordable.

 

Here is our current statement on the website and what we are about.

ChampCar is North America’s home for real, affordable, competitive endurance road racing.

 

I think we can adjust the statement now to this for 2021 and beyond.

ChampCar is North America’s home for real, competitive, endurance road racing.

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Equipping multiple fuel cans with dry break fittings will always be expensive, but in your example from Hunsaker it seems crazy to have to pay a $60 premium for them to replace a straight hose with a 45° elbow. When you are having to buy multiple cans it adds up quickly, it will still be expensive but you can probably save by buying the parts and assembling the cans yourself.

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Why would dry break be faster? It's still gravity feed? Are we talking about those few seconds it takes you to put the hose down. So that is 5seconds vs 1 seconds?

 

So maybe 8 seconds benefit?

 

Also RE71r is going out so not sure it makes sense to ban them, seems like there is a new generation of tires getting in.

 

Also I think the re71r wear is overrated, I am still using my left overs for track days. Lots of grip still.

Edited by turbogrill
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24 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Why would dry break be faster? It's still gravity feed? Are we talking about those few seconds it takes you to put the hose down. So that is 5seconds vs 1 seconds?

 

So maybe 8 seconds benefit?

 

Also RE71r is going out so not sure it makes sense to ban them, seems like there is a new generation of tires getting in.

 

Also I think the re71r wear is overrated, I am still using my left overs for track days. Lots of grip still.

I currently have hunsakers and around a 1" fill. If I try to fill faster it can spill out the fill tube.  If I get the dry break and it is 2.25" I can just dump them in and it should be much faster. I am thinking it would save me about a minute.

 

I do not think people will be on for banning any tires and the BOD has said specifically it would never bad a tire.

 

We have ran RE71r and RS4 back to back days and the RE71R was about 2 seconds faster on that car. On my car I suspect it to be a good 3 seconds on tracks with lap times of more than 2 minutes and on Road America it should be closer to 4.

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4 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Jack guy jacks up the car,

Why not Air Jacks and 4 guns. Center lock wheel conversion too. Done in 3 seconds.  You would be waiting for fuel. 
seriously though a dry break would be great if overhead rig was allowed but using 5 gallon can it’s not quicker than a well thought out fill tube with a cap. Something like this picture could be fabricated and a fuel cell would make it easier and quicker. 
 

21F53E01-FFE4-432E-AF27-557C7E929A37.jpeg

Edited by TimS
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20 minutes ago, red0 said:


I'm so happy the BOD decided I should spend another $3,000 to race in ChampCar. Thank you BOD for keeping costs down in this series. 

 


Ehhhhhh...... for 2020 it wasn't competitive. If GBU showed up and did not break, they were untouchable on the track.......and in impound. Hopefully the steps taken by the BOD and tech are enough to make it competitive for 2021. 

 

Agreed on GBU, but even looking at lap times and speed from Road America with other teams (that pesky CRX) the times are way up now and tires have a huge factor in that. The fact that GBU uses $5000+ in tires a weekend and no one in charge cares enough to address it shows me that the expectation is to spend money on tires now. All I see are excuses to not do X or Y, which means you can run whatever tire you want, change as many as you want and those are point free.  I think I might need to get on board with it and just suck it up and blow the money on it. I will just race two times with my car next year instead of 4-6, simple as that.  I do not see anything changing and trying to fight it seems like a worthless effort at this point. The BOD have make their statement and the new BOD hopefuls have not come out and said that they think there is a real issue or proposed a way to deal with. I was on my island there and was told point blank that I my views on tires are wrong and I should shut up. So it is what it is and I will deal with it.

 

Back to the dry break.  Anyone see any issues with the fuel going to the discriminator valve and using that as a stop gap to overflowing fuel out?

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1 minute ago, TimS said:

Why not Air Jacks and 4 guns. Center lock wheel conversion too. Done in 3 seconds.  You would be waiting for fuel. 
seriously though a dry break would be great if overhead rig was allowed but using 5 gallon can it’s not quicker than a well thought out fill tube with a cap. Something like this picture could be fabricated and a fuel cell would make it easier and quicker. 
 

21F53E01-FFE4-432E-AF27-557C7E929A37.jpeg

I currently have a fuel cell and fuel neck that is like 2.25", so the dry break at 2.25" will fit well. The issue I had is that when I tried to use the bigger fill tube from the Hunsaker it just did not dump in the tube fast enough and some would spill out. I went to around a 1" reducer to not have this. I could fill in less than 10 seconds per jug when I used larger, it just spilled, plus at the end it was a lot of extra fuel all over the place. The dry brake would fix all that and save me like a minute.

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1 minute ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

Back to the dry break.  Anyone see any issues with the fuel going to the discriminator valve and using that as a stop gap to overflowing fuel out?


this is what the discriminator valve does. Let’s air of but keeps fuel in. It’s designed to have fuel closing it. 

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3 minutes ago, TimS said:

Why not Air Jacks and 4 guns. Center lock wheel conversion too. Done in 3 seconds.  You would be waiting for fuel. 
seriously though a dry break would be great if overhead rig was allowed but using 5 gallon can it’s not quicker than a well thought out fill tube with a cap. Something like this picture could be fabricated and a fuel cell would make it easier and quicker. 
 

 

Are air jacks allowed now? I thought they were not, but I am not sure. I just skimmed the new rules and it says nothing about air jack systems. Centerlock wheels, I wonder if that would be points though. 

 

If we start seeing air jack cars, dry break systems and centerlock wheels we have really jumped the shark.

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4 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I currently have a fuel cell and fuel neck that is like 2.25", so the dry break at 2.25" will fit well. The issue I had is that when I tried to use the bigger fill tube from the Hunsaker it just did not dump in the tube fast enough and some would spill out. I went to around a 1" reducer to not have this. I could fill in less than 10 seconds per jug when I used larger, it just spilled, plus at the end it was a lot of extra fuel all over the place. The dry brake would fix all that and save me like a minute.


if it’s “spilling” out with the large diameter fill hose the the air in the tank is not escaping fast enough. As a test at the shop/home install the largest diameter vent on the tank possible and see if the jug fills with the large hose. What size discriminator valve?  Dry break would prevent the spill but might not be any quicker if you can’t get the air out quicker. 

Edited by TimS
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2 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Are air jacks allowed now? I thought they were not, but I am not sure. I just skimmed the new rules and it says nothing about air jack systems. Centerlock wheels, I wonder if that would be points though. 

 

If we start seeing air jack cars, dry break systems and centerlock wheels we have really jumped the shark.


I agree but I didn’t see any rule against air jacks either. 

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1 minute ago, TimS said:


if it’s “spilling” out with the large diameter fill hose the the air in the tank is not escaping fast enough. As a test at the shop/home install the largest diameter vent on the tank possible and see if the jug fills with the large hose. What size discriminator valve?

I have a large vent on it on. I think the issue is that the fill tube is not a simple straight shot. I have it in the passenger hood area so the fill tube comes out of the cell a 45 degree angle, goes straight a little bit, 90 degree to the right and then 90 degree up. It is only like 2 feet long and the curves back up the fuel. There is not a lot of room to fit a straight shot where I have it, but it is safer than the rear.  If it was a closed system with a dry brake it would not back up the tube though and can dump in much faster.

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5 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Agreed on GBU, but even looking at lap times and speed from Road America with other teams (that pesky CRX) the times are way up now and tires have a huge factor in that. The fact that GBU uses $5000+ in tires a weekend and no one in charge cares enough to address it shows me that the expectation is to spend money on tires now. All I see are excuses to not do X or Y, which means you can run whatever tire you want, change as many as you want and those are point free.  I think I might need to get on board with it and just suck it up and blow the money on it. I will just race two times with my car next year instead of 4-6, simple as that.  I do not see anything changing and trying to fight it seems like a worthless effort at this point. The BOD have make their statement and the new BOD hopefuls have not come out and said that they think there is a real issue or proposed a way to deal with. I was on my island there and was told point blank that I my views on tires are wrong and I should shut up. So it is what it is and I will deal with it.

Hasn't the RE71R been out for several years?  I think it was already the established fastest tire when we built our car in 2015.  Has the compound changed at all to make it faster in that time?  If not, I think it's a bit of a stretch to put the recent speed creep on that.  It's probably a lot more due to the ridiculous aero rules and people pushing the limits on WIDE wheels and tires.  Plus the other freebies and lowered FPV stuff every year.  I'm not saying I disagree with your position on limiting tire spending somehow, but these tires are not new and neither are the rules (or lack thereof) governing them.

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38 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I currently have hunsakers and around a 1" fill. If I try to fill faster it can spill out the fill tube.  If I get the dry break and it is 2.25" I can just dump them in and it should be much faster. I am thinking it would save me about a minute.

 

I do not think people will be on for banning any tires and the BOD has said specifically it would never bad a tire.

 

We have ran RE71r and RS4 back to back days and the RE71R was about 2 seconds faster on that car. On my car I suspect it to be a good 3 seconds on tracks with lap times of more than 2 minutes and on Road America it should be closer to 4.

 

Why not go 2.25" non dry break?

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6 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

Hasn't the RE71R been out for several years?  I think it was already the established fastest tire when we built our car in 2015.  Has the compound changed at all to make it faster in that time?  If not, I think it's a bit of a stretch to put the recent speed creep on that.  It's probably a lot more due to the ridiculous aero rules and people pushing the limits on WIDE wheels and tires.  Plus the other freebies and lowered FPV stuff every year.  I'm not saying I disagree with your position on limiting tire spending somehow, but these tires are not new and neither are the rules (or lack thereof) governing them.

I do not think people were using them until the last year or two as most were stuck on the old RS4 type of tires.  I see a lot of the teams that do very well not on super wide wheels, just really good tires. I says the RE71r, but that means the rival 1.5s and A052 yokos adn others. The only really wide tire car that does well is the GBU, most are reasonable. The E30s that have really wide tires and use RS4 tires and can actually be faster with skinner tires that are like RE71r, just no one makes a 245 tire in 15" that is sticky, yet.

 

Can you give me examples on the freebies that have increased the speed creep? I have asked that a few times, but no one comes up with a real answer there. I keep seeing people say no free stuff, but examples would be really good on what has changed and caused speed creep. I do not see anyone changing their cars and going X faster due to a so called free item now. Even the free penskes for the miatas are only marginally better than the old free bilstiens. The free brakes we have now are the same as the old with the 2x rule.

 

The aero rules have not changed and a person who has tried the flat bottom, diffuser, side skirts, air dam, splittler, different wings and spoilers. I can tell you it is not the aero that has the speed creep.

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1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

 

Why not go 2.25" non dry break?

I tried that, my fill tube has curves that cause some to back up and spill out. A dry break would solve that issue. Plus, if using that large of a tube I would have to guess to how much I could put in. If I was a gallon off I would be pumping a gallon of fuel over the cap all over the place and that is not safe at all. The dry break would allow me to fill super fast and not have issues.

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13 minutes ago, TimS said:

It may be faster as you would not have to slow for the spillage. Any way to smooth the twists and turns? Solid tubing? Larger diameter?  Mid engine complicates things for sure 

I have a fuel cell in the stock location (middle of the car) and have the fill towards the front. It comes out and curves and the curves I have are the only way to make it work. It is solid 2.25" alum tubing that I had Kevin Smith Tig wedl up for me to fit my location.  I thought about going to the center of the hood, but then how do I reach it to fill and see it.

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1 minute ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I tried that, my fill tube has curves that cause some to back up and spill out. A dry break would solve that issue. Plus, if using that large of a tube I would have to guess to how much I could put in. If I was a gallon off I would be pumping a gallon of fuel over the cap all over the place and that is not safe at all. The dry break would allow me to fill super fast and not have issues.

Yes. It would allow you to fill to the top without spilling. 

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