Aero points should be pro-rated to weight

[mender]

200 lbs of aero on 2000 lb car vs 3000 lb car. Another disadvantage for domestics.

 

Aaaand go.

[Wink]

I know you haven't been to a race in years, but horse power is far more valuable than aero.

 

Ask me how I know

[wvumtnbkr]

What about the 1.8 miata that was tearing it up at road America?

 

What about huggies cars that 1 is swapped and the other has aero and they have very similar race pace?

 

I mean obviously more horsepower is better, but there is definitely a crossover where "some more horsepower" is not as effective as aero.

 

Also, horsepower costs more in points than a splitter, airdam, and wing (30 pts).  How much hp can you buy for 30 points?  You could get a couple seconds a lap for those 30 pts.

[wvumtnbkr]

7 hours ago, mender said:

200 lbs of aero on 2000 lb car vs 3000 lb car. Another disadvantage for domestics.

 

Aaaand go.

Why is that a disadvantage for domestics?  Are domestic cars that much heavier than imports?  If so, is that reflected in the vpi?

 

It seems that domestic cars just arent or weren't shooting for the same markets as domestics.  There are no small domestic no frills roadsters (miata), and no small rwd sedans (e30, e36).  The closest domestics get is mustang, f bodies, and corvettes.

 

In other words, it's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

I got to drive a BMW 5 series with the v8 at road America.  It felt like a mustang to me.  It makes a bit more power than the mustang, has a larger tank, and it's starting vpi is 520 pts.  In other words, comparable imports are valued higher than the domestics imho.

 

I'm sure there are outliers, but the fun, tossable, rwd cars are mostly imports.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by wvumtnbkr

[The Aero Man]

I have never seen a scale of any kind at the track during a champcar event, ever. If we're bringing scales, just grab the trailer dyno and we can have on site dynoing for power to weight ratios.

 

Also, not all aero is the same. Cars would be required to have a data acquisition system and sensors to determine downforce - this could possibly be done with a modified flagtronics, but it is just a hassle. A zip tie around the shock absorber is almost the least thought through idea I've ever heard of.

 

Even though my car has 50pts of aero on it, we only make about 50 lbs of downforce at 100mph.

 

You could also just make your car lighter so your downforce has more effect on the car.

[hotchkis23]

3 minutes ago, The Aero Man said:

I have never seen a scale of any kind at the track during a champcar event, ever. If we're bringing scales, just grab the trailer dyno and we can have on site dynoing for power to weight ratios.

 

 

At Road America tech is done in the scale barn....

[Snorman]

10 minutes ago, The Aero Man said:

I have never seen a scale of any kind at the track during a champcar event, ever.

Never been to Daytona? 

[Clifford Beisler]

7 hours ago, mender said:

200 lbs of aero on 2000 lb car vs 3000 lb car. Another disadvantage for domestics.

 

Aaaand go.

My point exactly....

 

[mender]

6 hours ago, Wink said:

I know you haven't been to a Champcar race in years, but horse power is far more valuable than aero.

Ask me how I know

FIFY. Surprise, surprise, racing exists outside of Champcar.

 

Two months ago we ran the Civic at a 3.0 mile 16 turn track with good aero and a hurt engine, so down on power even from our usual. Fastest lap of the field that day was 2:24 something by the track designer with a very well prepped Mustang and national level driving ability. Two of my drivers did 2:26 lap times, also very good drivers but their first times there, not like the Mustang driver with years of experience there.

 

We went from 36th at the start to three laps in the lead after 7.5 hours on a high speed track before the engine finally let go. The aero on the car that weekend was worth quite a bit more than having a healthy engine.

 

That's how I know. Well, besides over thirty years making my living in racing.

Edited December 31, 2020 by mender

[mender]

52 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

What about the 1.8 miata that was tearing it up at road America?

 

What about huggies cars that 1 is swapped and the other has aero and they have very similar race pace?

 

I mean obviously more horsepower is better, but there is definitely a crossover where "some more horsepower" is not as effective as aero.

 

Also, horsepower costs more in points than a splitter, airdam, and wing (30 pts).  How much hp can you buy for 30 points?  You could get a couple seconds a lap for those 30 pts.

That's actually my point; aero right now is a performance bargain.

 

While I certainly am enjoying playing with aero, the end result is that it's yet another trend that needs to be embraced by the field to stay in the game. More cost, more development time, more speed, etc, all of which is just fine as long as the teams that make up most of the field don't mind. 

 

[mender]

57 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Why is that a disadvantage for domestics?  Are domestic cars that much heavier than imports?  If so, is that reflected in the vpi?

 

It seems that domestic cars just arent or weren't shooting for the same markets as domestics.  There are no small domestic no frills roadsters (miata), and no small rwd sedans (e30, e36).  The closest domestics get is mustang, f bodies, and corvettes.

 

In other words, it's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

I got to drive a BMW 5 series with the v8 at road America.  It felt like a mustang to me.  It makes a bit more power than the mustang, has a larger tank, and it's starting vpi is 520 pts.  In other words, comparable imports are valued higher than the domestics imho.

 

I'm sure there are outliers, but the fun, tossable, rwd cars are mostly imports.

 

No, it's not about domestics vs imports but that seems to still be a good hot button to start a discussion...

 

It's about the percentage improvement that aero has on light cars compared to heavy cars whether USDM, JDM, or whatever.  The fact that light good handling cars get a bigger boost from the same aero downforce is something that is becoming noticable in the race results these days. That being said, the rules for aero haven't really been maxed out by many cars so far in terms of size and area so heavy cars can tack on bigger splitters and wings to get the same proportional gains. 

 

Just putting that out there today so I can reference this thread and show that my hindsight about this year's racing trends was 2020.

 

[Snorman]

19 minutes ago, Lethal Cliff said:

My point exactly....

 

So no more talk about American iron cars. Got it. 

We'll stick to Miatas and BMWs. 

[enginerd]

8 hours ago, mender said:

200 lbs of aero on 2000 lb car vs 3000 lb car. Another disadvantage for domestics.

 

Aaaand go.

You can choose to spend points however you want... if you want to build to aero parts out of lead, by all means go out and build your 200lbs of aero pieces

[mender]

Just now, enginerd said:

You can choose to spend points however you want... if you want to build to aero parts out of lead, by all means go out and build your 200lbs of aero pieces

I knew someone would point that out... and I figured it might be you! 

[Bandit]

 

What's that? 50 points?

 

*Having watched video of the aero'd up Miata is pretty obvious it's making serious downforce they way it blows by anything high or low in the corners.

[enginerd]

33 minutes ago, mender said:

I knew someone would point that out... and I figured it might be you! 

On topic, wing / splitter are limited to the width of the car. Domestics are often wider than imports. Wider wing, more downforce, advantage domestic.

 

Also there's no rule on wing chord or profile. You can put a really big wing on your domestic... doesn't have to be the same wing that someone else puts on their miata.

[Bandit]

2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It seems that domestic cars just arent or weren't shooting for the same markets as domestics.  There are no small domestic no frills roadsters (miata), and no small rwd sedans (e30, e36).  The closest domestics get is mustang, f bodies, and corvettes.

 

In other words, it's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

Solstice-460 points, Sky-500 pts, CTS 480-500 pts 

[LuckyKid]

1.  VPI and Swap take into account, at some level, PWR to WEIGHT therefore heavy cars are allowed more power.  Power to drag heavily favors the heavy cars.
2.  Heavy cars are bigger and can have bigger more efficient aero elements.
3.  Heavy cars are longer and get inherent aero advantages.
4. Heavy cars are bigger and get more material to repurpose.
5.  At Gingerman WTF was faster than us with way less aero.
6.  Our downforce is power/drag limited, not element limited.  If we wanted to double our downforce we could, but we don't have the power to make up for the added drag, where a bigger more powerful car can turn up the DF. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by LuckyKid

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

4 hours ago, mender said:

FIFY. Surprise, surprise, racing exists outside of Champcar.

 

Two months ago we ran the Civic at a 3.0 mile 16 turn track with good aero and a hurt engine, so down on power even from our usual. Fastest lap of the field that day was 2:24 something by the track designer with a very well prepped Mustang and national level driving ability. Two of my drivers did 2:26 lap times, also very good drivers but their first times there, not like the Mustang driver with years of experience there.

 

We went from 37th at the start to three laps in the lead after 7.5 hours on a high speed track before the engine finally let go. The aero on the car that weekend was worth quite a bit more than having a healthy engine.

 

That's how I know. Well, besides over thirty years making my living in racing.

 

Sounds interesting.  What race was that?  Would be curious to go study the laptimes on speedhive a bit.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Burningham

[mender]

59 minutes ago, Burningham said:

 

Sounds interesting.  What race was that?  Would be curious to go study the laptimes on speedhive a bit.

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/5909080

 

We're #331 Apex Predators. Started 36th, finished 25th on Saturday. Click on the lap chart, find us and you can see our progress. Slow first pit stop, had to fix a radio problem but the other stops were good. For those wondering about the class racing, we started in class C and got bumped up twice as we moved through the field and into the lead.

 

It was almost a Cinderella story!

Edited December 31, 2020 by mender

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

10 minutes ago, mender said:

It was almost a Cinderella story!

 

As Forest Gump said, it happens....

[mender]

6 hours ago, Wink said:

I know you haven't been to a race in years, but horse power is far more valuable than aero.

 

Ask me how I know

Oops, sorry!

 

How do you know?

[Timothy G. Elliott]

Any of you ever read the Engineer to Win series? It's always more beneficial to lower drag and easier to do by upgrading on Aero mods, then adding Horse power. We were hitting a literal wall at Road America and I failed to recognize the benefits of Aero mods allowed in our series, so now I've done a bunch, though the proof will be at April's race. They were not hard and should improve our lap times hopefully by a lot.

[Timothy G. Elliott]

All this Aero stuff had me remember the Polish Race Drivers Association, and I just learned that Oscar Koveleski passed away on the 28 of this past, month. The reason I looked it up was an image of one of there drivers in an open wheel car with a wing added to his helmet. He was avery funny guy!

[mender]

I have a fairly extensive technical library that has a lot of first or early editions of everything I could buy starting in the mid-70s.  Back then, books on racing tech and technique were quite rare, not like today where you can go on Amazon and order up a couple dozen.

 

My books of Smith's series are quite dog-eared, as are my two copies of "Sunday Driver" which includes the story of the Cannonball with Oscar Koveleski's entry. Classic, and thanks for mentioning that!

 

P.S. Looks like my Ayrton Senna book is now worth a bit of money...

Edited January 1, 2021 by mender