Why only engines from the VPI list?

[turbogrill]

Hi,

 

For swaps why do they only have engines from the VPI list?

 

The 2009+ Ford Escape has a 170hp 2.5 engine that is dirt cheap and a perfect swap for our series. The same engine exist in Mazdas that might be on the VPI list but these are more expensive.

 

Seems a little odd to add a Ford Escape tot the VPI list just so people can do cheap swaps?  The horsepower formula and the cost ceiling is there to make sure no crazy swaps happen?

 

[WTFover]

Because someone will show up with a Judd V10. 

[Bill Strong]

But that's what my VW Tourag V10 has!!!! 

 

[LuckyKid]

Ask tech for a ruling that the engines are equivalent.  @enginerd  I think got that ruling on a K-swap I believe!?!?

[The Aero Man]

There is no way to measure HP.

 

If there was a dyno at the track, it could be done, but I recall that conversation happening a little while ago...

[Chris Huggins]

Its a way to control the engines allowed in the series. It also gives a finite limit to the amount of research the TAC and Staff have to do on various engines. 

Just imagine having to research some obscure engine from a LADA in russian that makes 10 hp but 700ftlb torque or something.

 

Even with the HP/WT and the Cost cap, Racers are, uh, creative people, and there are some crazy things that might show up.

 

If the engine really is the same as what comes in a mazda, then champcar doesn't care if you buy one that actually came from an escape, as long as its all the same (intake, cams, throttlebody, etc).  Same as champcar doesn't care that your 1999 miata is vin-stamped 2001, make it exactly like a 1999 and its all good.

 

 

[turbogrill]

10 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

Its a way to control the engines allowed in the series. It also gives a finite limit to the amount of research the TAC and Staff have to do on various engines. 

Just imagine having to research some obscure engine from a LADA in russian that makes 10 hp but 700ftlb torque or something.

 

Even with the HP/WT and the Cost cap, Racers are, uh, creative people, and there are some crazy things that might show up.

 

If the engine really is the same as what comes in a mazda, then champcar doesn't care if you buy one that actually came from an escape, as long as its all the same (intake, cams, throttlebody, etc).  Same as champcar doesn't care that your 1999 miata is vin-stamped 2001, make it exactly like a 1999 and its all good.

 

 

 

That makes sense, from what we care about it's the same. They are rated slightly different but that is probably due to the exhaust. 

 

11 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

and there are some crazy things that might show up.

 

 

I have spend sooo much time trying to find some nice loopholes  I want to swap in a 180hp engine that gives me 250whp with minor mods. The N52B30 seems to be the best one so far in that regard (Intake swap + tune gives crazy power for 25pts)

 

[TiredBirds]

Because GM LS motors are very cheap and can make tons of HP w/o much effort. 

[turbogrill]

1 hour ago, TiredBirds said:

Because GM LS motors are very cheap and can make tons of HP w/o much effort. 

 

For heavier cars that would be great, I think the LQ4 is rated at 255hp. I guess a car with a swap weight of 3500lbs or so could use one without having the calculator explode.

 

[petawawarace]

1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

That makes sense, from what we care about it's the same. They are rated slightly different but that is probably due to the exhaust. 

 

 

I have spend sooo much time trying to find some nice loopholes  I want to swap in a 180hp engine that gives me 250whp with minor mods. The N52B30 seems to be the best one so far in that regard (Intake swap + tune gives crazy power for 25pts)

 

Be careful with Intakes. A lot of newer vehicles (2000+) have the same engines rated at different values and it’s mostly because of intakes.  The Ecotecs for example have about 6 different intakes.  So you claim the lowest hp engine, but if you have the higher hp intake on, your not legal.  
When you buy one of these from a wrecker, they don’t care which intake is on it, because it still fits.  

[Bandit]

5 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

Because GM LS motors are very cheap and can make tons of HP w/o much effort. 

They're on the list. Even the LS1.

 

You need something about this big before being allowed to swap one in however.

[enginerd]

6 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

Ask tech for a ruling that the engines are equivalent.  @enginerd 

I didn’t get any rulings or clarifications or things. The precedent for years has been that you can claim, for instance, that your 1990 car is actually a 1988 or vis versa as long as it is identical to what is claimed when you bring it to tech. Same is true for engines.. engine swappers have, for years, used pick-n-pull engines from, say, a minivan car  (because soccer mom driving) and claimed it is from a sedan car because they are literally identical engines and the minivan doesn’t appear on the VPI list.
Identical engines are identical. 

[turbogrill]

41 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I didn’t get any rulings or clarifications or things. The precedent for years has been that you can claim, for instance, that your 1990 car is actually a 1988 or vis versa as long as it is identical to what is claimed when you bring it to tech. Same is true for engines.. engine swappers have, for years, used pick-n-pull engines from, say, a minivan car  (because soccer mom driving) and claimed it is from a sedan car because they are literally identical engines and the minivan doesn’t appear on the VPI list.
Identical engines are identical. 

 

But how would the tech guy know they are the same? 

 

Or they are the same until some one will protest? (And either you get busted or the person protesting will loose $50)

[LuckyKid]

45 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I didn’t get any rulings or clarifications or things. The precedent for years has been that you can claim, for instance, that your 1990 car is actually a 1988 or vis versa as long as it is identical to what is claimed when you bring it to tech. Same is true for engines.. engine swappers have, for years, used pick-n-pull engines from, say, a minivan car  (because soccer mom driving) and claimed it is from a sedan car because they are literally identical engines and the minivan doesn’t appear on the VPI list.
Identical engines are identical. 

Sorry, I thought it was you from memory, but I see now its a K20 and appears that it was stock from the factory.  Here is the ticket I was thinking of:  https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=155

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by LuckyKid

[enginerd]

30 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

But how would the tech guy know they are the same? 

 

Or they are the same until some one will protest? (And either you get busted or the person protesting will loose $50)

Just like literally everything else in ChampCar is determined for legality. I show up with a car and claim it is using the stock engine... it is assumed to be stock unless someone (tech / competitor) points out something to the contrary.

 

Or I show up with a swapped engine and claim it is this new XXX engine and it is assumed to be that engine unless someone points out something to the contrary.

 

If I show you a water fowl and say it’s a duck, and it walks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it’s a duck until you show me a birth certificate or a DNA test or call in a bird expert saying it isn’t a duck. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by enginerd

[collinskl1]

Just make sure the valve covers are correct

[TiredBirds]

17 hours ago, Bandit said:

They're on the list. Even the LS1.

 

You need something about this big before being allowed to swap one in however.

what is the factory weight on that? 

[mender]

1967 Impala 4 dr (lightest) shipping weight is listed as 3575 lbs, wagon is 3920 lbs.  

[TiredBirds]

17 minutes ago, mender said:

1967 Impala 4 dr (lightest) shipping weight is listed as 3575 lbs, wagon is 3920 lbs.  

humm our shipping weight is 3400lbs

[turbogrill]

59 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

humm our shipping weight is 3400lbs

 

oh o

 

[Bandit]

5 hours ago, mender said:

1967 Impala 4 dr (lightest) shipping weight is listed as 3575 lbs, wagon is 3920 lbs.  

reference weights: base curb weight: 1898 kg / 4184 lbs

 

427/th400 coupe

[mender]

From my catalog of American automobiles so not the "official" weight/fudge/factored/tweaked number. 

[Bandit]

15 minutes ago, mender said:

From my catalog of American automobiles so not the "official" weight/fudge/factored/tweaked number. 

That's from the automobile catalog website that in the past was claimed as the basis for the weights in the swap calc. Before it became the Fudge Factory.

 

600 pound spread between the base 6 cylinder/3 speed and the big dog 427 seems odd. It's not like AC was standard on one over the other.

[mender]

18 hours ago, Bandit said:

That's from the automobile catalog website that in the past was claimed as the basis for the weights in the swap calc. Before it became the Fudge Factory.

 

600 pound spread between the base 6 cylinder/3 speed and the big dog 427 seems odd. It's not like AC was standard on one over the other.

300 lbs would be about right. 6 cylinder = 450 lbs, BBC = 650 lbs, 3 speed manual to TH400 is probably close to 100 lbs. There may have been other packaged upgrades that added weight.

Edited February 11, 2021 by mender

[TiredBirds]

18 hours ago, Bandit said:

That's from the automobile catalog website that in the past was claimed as the basis for the weights in the swap calc. Before it became the Fudge Factory.

 

600 pound spread between the base 6 cylinder/3 speed and the big dog 427 seems odd. It's not like AC was standard on one over the other.

Mopar /6 weighs 475, 426 Hemi weighs 765.  Perhaps the additional weigh above comes from the weight between a 3 speed vs 4 speed and rear end. Doubt the 427 came with the same rear. I know you didn't get a 7.25 behind a Hemi...4 speed dana was you only option, and those things are HEAVY.