Lackluster Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 I'm curious what others are running. We are putting together a 1st gen Neon and the car currently has a manual rack in it. I'm thinking that's the right way to go. There is a thought in the back of mine and a teammates mind that we may regret this. The car will be run on either 195/14 or 205/15 tires. How punishing will this be for an endurance race? My street car had the p/s fluid boiling after 5 or 6 consecutive laps of the east portion of NCM last year so with that in mind... simpler seems better but let me know if my thinking is flawed. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 Light car, tires not ridiculous, manual is the way to go IMO. Most teams just use a power rack and plug the lines or something like that. Great feel and in our sub 2500 lbs car it’s not tiring. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tneker Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Lackluster said: I'm curious what others are running. We are putting together a 1st gen Neon and the car currently has a manual rack in it. I'm thinking that's the right way to go. There is a thought in the back of mine and a teammates mind that we may regret this. The car will be run on either 195/14 or 205/15 tires. How punishing will this be for an endurance race? My street car had the p/s fluid boiling after 5 or 6 consecutive laps of the east portion of NCM last year so with that in mind... simpler seems better but let me know if my thinking is flawed. Thanks we run a depowered power rack in our 1st gen neon, 225 tires, not fun in the paddock but on track is fine. Never ran with it powered so not sure how much less fatiguing it would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revvhappy Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Not a FWD, but I depowered the rack on my 2500 lb Supra and it's never been an issue for two hour stints with 255 tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) 1100 lbs on the front of a Fiero with 225 tires. Changing from the stock manual rack to the WS6 power steering rack is probably the most significant change in how the car drives. Great feedback with fingertip effort. Like dancing with a ballerina; she knows the moves and makes you look better than you are. 1350 lbs on the front of a Civic with 245 tires. Stock manual rack. Decent feedback but the effort is getting high. Like dancing with a female wrestler; can be done but you'll know it the next day. Edited March 13, 2021 by mender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Manual racks tend to have a higher count of turns lock to lock than a powered rack, to give you a bit more mechanical advantage. The downside of this is the amount of input needed to make corrections. This is one reason some people will simply de-power their powered rack. A bigger steering wheel can help with the fatigue too, as can some castor adjustment. FWIW, Miata with depowered rack, small steering wheel is not impossible for 2 hours. I also think you may have trouble finding 14" tires, but that's another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lackluster Posted March 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Thanks for all of the replies. Looks like we will give manual a go. The wheel is on the large side so worst case scenario we end up sawing a big wheel back and forth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar 4 Life Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I would not not not not use that neon manual rack. We tried this on our neon and ratio is way too high to make up for it not being power assisted. We used a R/T rack which was 14:1 or 16:1. The true manual rack is 22:1. A turn that would take about 45 degreed steering input took almost 90 degree input on the manual. Yes, you would save a little weight but you would hate life on the track. A lower ratio rack de-powered would be better. Or power it but use a bigger pulley and power steering cooler if the effort is too much over two hours. Which it really isn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 We don't run a ps cooler and haven't any issues. The rack I'm using is a low assist so more work done by the driver and less work done by the power steering pump. That may be significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler_j Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 Manual is fine, if you want less effort just throw one of these bad boys in there. Great sensitivity and low effort. Plenty of locations to throw on a trucker knob too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 1 hour ago, tyler_j said: Manual is fine, if you want less effort just throw one of these bad boys in there. Great sensitivity and low effort. Plenty of locations to throw on a trucker knob too. Is that the one with the 300 turns lock to lock and the vacuum wipers? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lackluster Posted March 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 On 3/14/2021 at 9:22 AM, Mopar 4 Life said: I would not not not not use that neon manual rack. We tried this on our neon and ratio is way too high to make up for it not being power assisted. We used a R/T rack which was 14:1 or 16:1. The true manual rack is 22:1. A turn that would take about 45 degreed steering input took almost 90 degree input on the manual. Yes, you would save a little weight but you would hate life on the track. A lower ratio rack de-powered would be better. Or power it but use a bigger pulley and power steering cooler if the effort is too much over two hours. Which it really isn’t. Well that changes things. Looks like I need to hunt for a rack. The yards around me have plenty of 2nd gen cars and PT's but no 1st gen's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 I don't think any of the neon's currently run in the series use power steering, and all of the ones I have seen up close use depowered racks (because the manual rack is so many turns lock to lock). You can look up on the neons.org site how to depower the rack properly, or there are still vendors in that community that will depower one for you. I have driven properly depowered cars, and power steering racks with just the hoses looped together and some fluid in them for lube. Properly depowering gives slightly better feel, but in pinch both are driveable. The mopar4life guys ran the car successfully and are a great resource. Myself, tneker, "rooster racing" all campaign these cars and can give you pointers on keeping them running. They make reliable starter cars but do face an uphill battle in fuel to weight, and lack the generous swap weight other cars get. The can do well if you chop everything out of them, use some vpi points for power mods on a 2.4 and stick to 7 hour races (or low fuel burn 8 hour tracks) with relatively low speed. Good luck and let us know if we can help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted March 22, 2021 Report Share Posted March 22, 2021 We run two cars. One with power steering; FWD, 2600lbs dry, & 285 front tires. One with manual steering; FWD 1900lbs dry, & 245 front tires. The larger car we tested without power steering and it is drivable for a sprint race; 20 minutes. It was hard work but doable for large guys. The biggest issue was that if you lost the car in a slide it was unrecoverable. The wheel would tear out of your hands regardless of driver size. For an endurance race it was out of the questions. If you plan to run a manual, test it from a recoverability perspective. High effort is probably ok. Unrecoverable is not. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 The fast ratio ps rack changed a slide in the Fiero from a flurry of arms and elbows (and crossed fingers!) to a quick flick of the wheel. As mentioned, it was the most significant change in the drivability of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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