gundy Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 Do we believe the tech deck answers or the rules? 9.22. AERODYNAMIC DEVICES 9.22.1. Aerodynamic devices not to exceed width of OE bodywork (fenders, bumpers, doors) when viewed from above. Note: Side mirrors are not included in bodywork width. Maximum wing height 12” above roof. Maximum wing drop-back 12” behind car. A splitter is any horizontal device installed from the centerline of the front axle extending a maximum of 12” out of the front of the vehicle. An air dam is any vertical device installed from the nose of the bumper down. I am referring to air dams and splitters. The rules say from nose of bumper down, neither of these are from the nose down. Top one is close. 2019-11-28 - Front Air Dam Air Dam - 10 points Tech interpretation and enforcement is any non-oem vertical aero component is an air dam. See Photo for Example. Jay Mauney - Chief Tech Director Q2.Is this 1.5" piece of garden edging the same 10 points as 15" piece of plastic or aluminum that wraps around the entire front of a Miata? A2. Yes, any non-oe horizontal component added to the front facia of a car is considered an aero component and the addition of that component is charged 10 points. Tech may charge additional material cost if the component covers an area beyond the parameters of a standard air dam. 2020-10-19 - Air Dam Angle Q. The rules do not currently specify a a tolerance on how "vertical" the air dam must be. Other series (e.g. NASA, SCCA) put this at 5%. Is this currently defined for ChampCar? A. There is no definition on angle. However if you have a scoop type i.e. angled air damn you will get points for both horizontal and vertical at 20 points. Jay Mauney according to rules this is neither air dam or splitter but charged 20pts instead of material. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, gundy said: Do we believe the tech deck answers or the rules? 9.22. AERODYNAMIC DEVICES 9.22.1. Aerodynamic devices not to exceed width of OE bodywork (fenders, bumpers, doors) when viewed from above. Note: Side mirrors are not included in bodywork width. Maximum wing height 12” above roof. Maximum wing drop-back 12” behind car. A splitter is any horizontal device installed from the centerline of the front axle extending a maximum of 12” out of the front of the vehicle. An air dam is any vertical device installed from the nose of the bumper down. I am referring to air dams and splitters. The rules say from nose of bumper down, neither of these are from the nose down. Top one is close. 2019-11-28 - Front Air Dam Air Dam - 10 points Tech interpretation and enforcement is any non-oem vertical aero component is an air dam. See Photo for Example. Jay Mauney - Chief Tech Director Q2.Is this 1.5" piece of garden edging the same 10 points as 15" piece of plastic or aluminum that wraps around the entire front of a Miata? A2. Yes, any non-oe horizontal component added to the front facia of a car is considered an aero component and the addition of that component is charged 10 points. Tech may charge additional material cost if the component covers an area beyond the parameters of a standard air dam. 2020-10-19 - Air Dam Angle Q. The rules do not currently specify a a tolerance on how "vertical" the air dam must be. Other series (e.g. NASA, SCCA) put this at 5%. Is this currently defined for ChampCar? A. There is no definition on angle. However if you have a scoop type i.e. angled air damn you will get points for both horizontal and vertical at 20 points. Jay Mauney according to rules this is neither air dam or splitter but charged 20pts instead of material. Ok this has pissed me off for a while... I don’t know if this is your intention or not, I’m ranting about many previous posts now and I’m probably not actually answering your question. I see the rules say horizontal and vertical... then I see some posts where people say “well if mine is 45 degrees it’s free because it isn’t a splitter or an air dam”. Wake up dummy! It’s doing the function of both splitter and air dam, if tech doesn’t charge your 45 degree thing as both, then you have gotten away with murder. Let’s be sensible here and stop nit picking a few degrees here or there... if you think you have come with with a clever way to get something for free, you haven’t, tech will (should) just assign you points. Edited May 11, 2021 by enginerd 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) Lolz... Splitter is horizontal (ish). Call it within 15 degrees and you won't have an issue. Yes, that little bit of edging on bottom of miata should be 10 pts. So, don't waste your time with it. Just make an airdam or nothing at all. Edited May 11, 2021 by wvumtnbkr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundy Posted May 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 22 minutes ago, enginerd said: Ok this has pissed me off for a while... I don’t know if this is your intention or not, I’m ranting about many previous posts now and I’m probably not actually answering your question. I see the rules say horizontal and vertical... then I see some posts where people say “well if mine is 45 degrees it’s free because it isn’t a splitter or an air dam”. Wake up dummy! It’s doing the function of both splitter and air dam, if tech doesn’t charge your 45 degree thing as both, then you have gotten away with murder. Let’s be sensible here and stop nit picking a few degrees here or there... if you think you have come with with a clever way to get something for free, you haven’t, tech will (should) just assign you points. I agree with you it should not be free. But if there is nothing going back under the car or sticking out in front of the car where is the splitter. So charge as a air dam , ether 10pts or materials. The small lip is not a air dam because it is not from the nose of the car so materials only 7.5pts vs 10pts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 If you already know what you wanna hear..... That little thing is 100% an airdam. A crappy one that wouldnt be very efficient. Just because it isn't as good as a full on airdam doesn't mean it isn't an airdam. That is on the nose / bumper of the car. That being said, I sure as he'll wouldn't pay 7.5 pts for it.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 22 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: If you already know what you wanna hear..... That little thing is 100% an airdam. A crappy one that wouldnt be very efficient. Just because it isn't as good as a full on airdam doesn't mean it isn't an airdam. That is on the nose / bumper of the car. That being said, I sure as he'll wouldn't pay 7.5 pts for it.... The whole secret of the current rule set is to make sure that you get your money’s worth on everything you spend points for 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 14 minutes ago, mhr650 said: The whole secret of the current rule set is to make sure that you get your money’s worth on everything you spend points for And ideally have all parts of your car have 2 or more jobs (if possible). It's all about those efficiencies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 gundy you need to get out and drive some more and let tech fight this one out as Rob said go big and make it work or don't waste the points. It's kind of like a Miata team that made it from duct tape and cardboard at no points.......... bull cookies! It is still an aero device. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espog Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 I thought if it came stock on the car from the factory then it was no points b\c it was already included in the vpi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 6 minutes ago, espog said: I thought if it came stock on the car from the factory then it was no points b\c it was already included in the vpi That is accurate. What item(s) are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espog Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 Just now, enginerd said: That is accurate. What item(s) are you talking about? That little lip at bottom of miata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, espog said: That little lip at bottom of miata Zero points if it came on the factory Miata standard package. I think a picture above referenced “lawn edging to make an air dam lip”, no miatas came with lawn edging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espog Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 Yes the picture does reference lawn edging but that looks plastic and i have seen the same thing on other miatas. I do not know if it is stock though. Just trying to give him an out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 "from the nose of the bumper down" does not mean it only applies to things that start at the nose of the bumper, it means anything that is below the nose of the bumper. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Beisler Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 6 hours ago, gundy said: I agree with you it should not be free. But if there is nothing going back under the car or sticking out in front of the car where is the splitter. So charge as a air dam , ether 10pts or materials. The small lip is not a air dam because it is not from the nose of the car so materials only 7.5pts vs 10pts This is why tech has the final say. If it acts as a splitter. Guess what? It's 10 points. Putting the rule book under a microscope will not win you races. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundy Posted May 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Clifford Beisler said: This is why tech has the final say. If it acts as a splitter. Guess what? It's 10 points. Putting the rule book under a microscope will not win you races. You are so right, but if I don't put it under a microscope and win I can rest assured that someone that I beat will complain that my interpretation is not the same as the intent. I would rather not be hit by surprises at impound if I can help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig71188 Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 If this is your biggest beef about aero..... Perhaps the concern should be the MASSIVE undervaluing of aero vs. other mods. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wink Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, craig71188 said: If this is your biggest beef about aero..... Perhaps the concern should be the MASSIVE undervaluing of aero vs. other mods. It wasn't long ago that most publicly felt aero was not effective at the speeds we compete at Times seem to have changed 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 4 hours ago, craig71188 said: If this is your biggest beef about aero..... Perhaps the concern should be the MASSIVE undervaluing of aero vs. other mods. 45 minutes ago, Wink said: It wasn't long ago that most publicly felt aero was not effective at the speeds we compete at Times seem to have changed It’s like I told a friend of mine a few years ago the first time he saw the old Biohazard when it was even more radical than he can run it nowadays. They count on the people running in this series to not be competent enough to get all of the potential out of the aero components they install. That has improved a bit over the years, and nowadays most of the people running aero effectively end up at pretty much the same setup. You still see plenty of bad aero additions at the races, but they sure look cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremsen Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Wink said: It wasn't long ago that most publicly felt aero was not effective at the speeds we compete at Yeah, back when guys were running cars like this one, where the weight and drag clearly negated any downforce increase: Now they all look more like this: Times definitely changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins Posted May 12, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, Bremsen said: Yeah, back when guys were running cars like this one, where the weight and drag clearly negated any downforce increase: Now they all look more like this: Times definitely changed. First photo: Lemons South @ CMP circa 2010 Second photo: Champcar @ Road Atlanta, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 23 hours ago, gundy said: I agree with you it should not be free. But if there is nothing going back under the car or sticking out in front of the car where is the splitter. So charge as a air dam , ether 10pts or materials. The small lip is not a air dam because it is not from the nose of the car so materials only 7.5pts vs 10pts So in other words it is not very effective. Therefore just take it off and use your 10 points somewhere else. This might be applicable too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundy Posted May 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 25 minutes ago, MMiskoe said: So in other words it is not very effective. Therefore just take it off and use your 10 points somewhere else. This might be applicable too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ I made it bigger to get the benefit of of 10pts . My point is if I really wanted to run the small lip I should be able to claim 7.5pts whatever my reasoning or wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremsen Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Chris Huggins said: First photo: Lemons South @ CMP circa 2010 Second photo: Champcar @ Road Atlanta, 2018 Yeah, the big shift seemed to occur around 2013-2015 after the switch to a points based (and not $$ based) ruleset. Seems like yesterday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted May 12, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Bremsen said: Yeah, the big shift seemed to occur around 2013-2015 after the switch to a points based (and not $$ based) ruleset. Seems like yesterday. I didn't know we were allowed to build cars until I ran against Biohazard in 2012. Before that, I was just bringing my $500 oval claimer class car. Then I went from: to: Edited May 12, 2021 by Andrew D Johnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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