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Total Point Value for Potential Build


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I have wanted to build a classic mini for a long time, and I will have the resources to do it soon. So now I have to decide it's purpose; if possible, I'd like to go racing with it. No matter what, there's some things I'm going to do. The car will have completely redesigned subframes and suspension, 4-wheel steering, and a turbo. So lets talk about the possibility of doing champ car, and what the points value will be.

 

  • Austin Mini Pre-1980 = 100pts.
  • Power Steering - Electro-Hydraulic Power Steering Conversion = 10pts. <-- The rear steering rack will be hydraulically driven by the front rack
  • Shock Absorbers = 100pts. (25pts. x 4)
  • Suspension Springs = 20pts. (5pts. x 4)
  • Sway-bar = 40pts. (20pts. x 2)
  • Tubular Front Sub-frame: 20pts. (10pts. x 2) <-- Can I assume rear subframes are also 10pts.?
  • Tubular Control Arms: 80pts. (10pts. x 😎 <-- Do these fit the 'other componets not listed' category?
  • Turbo = 100pts.

 

What do you think about this general points breakdown? There are some things which are hard to tell if they fit or not. Also, below are some other questions.

 

  • If I wanted to make this AWD, how would I assign points to adding a rear differential? Does it have the same point cost as a differential swap.
  • Does a custom sub-frame that bolts on fit the bolt-on subframe rule? I feel like the intent is for people to actually buy one, and a custom one is not ok.
  • If I make a custom sub-frame, or even buy one, it will have non-OE bushings. Do I need to assign a 10pt value to these, or are they included with the sub-frame? 
Edited by ARJ0019
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Great questions!

 

In general, I think you have it right.  I would save the 100pts for the shocks though.  Just go With som3thing sporty "off the shelf".  I would also go with a pair or all 4 adjustable height aprings for 40 pts instead of spending half that on whatever springs.

 

Aero matters as well...

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Why bother with 4 wheel steering?  Unless you are doing some creative work to simulate a longer wheel base then I don't see the point.  AWD is likely not going to be much of a performance advantage unless it's very wet.  I think something along the lines of a Honda B series or K series FWD with a good diff, suspension and brakes would be killer.

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I'd think you could save some points by using nice of the shelf stuff for springs and shocks. Bilstein's are free and you can call Moog and get whatever spring you want for no points. Why 4 wheel steering? That car is tiny enough. I'd focus more on power. The cars here seem to be getting pretty fast. It would be no fun to zig zag thru the turns just to get blown by on the straights.  If you do run the turbo keep the boost down. What is the tank size? You might want to consider a cell, it is free and gives you 2 gallons extra. 

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This is interesting. At first, I am thinking, what is the point, on a car that small it has to have a tiny tank.  Nope! 13.2G us. WOW. Go 15 gallon fuel cell. I bet you could get it to weigh about 1400lbs or less race weight. 

 

You might want to put in an inter cooler also.

 

The only real issue is that you can not do any type of swap at all with the 1202lb weight

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I would submit a tech desk ticket to check on that rear subframe for 10 points....and in general reach out to tech about the build as well so you get your points correct and don’t have surprises....I hope they value that rear at 10 points. Keep us updated!

 

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18 hours ago, shanehutton said:

Why bother with 4 wheel steering?  Unless you are doing some creative work to simulate a longer wheel base then I don't see the point.  AWD is likely not going to be much of a performance advantage unless it's very wet.  I think something along the lines of a Honda B series or K series FWD with a good diff, suspension and brakes would be killer.

I'm a mechanical engineer with a racing and aftermarket background. This mini is basically my dream car. I'd drop the champ car goals before something like 4 wheel steering. It's just something I want, and I have great plans on how to do it. I'm not totally set on AWD. I'd like to have it, but I could go without. 

 

1 hour ago, Originalsterm said:

There are some pretty small displacement low HP Ecoboost motors that might work in this particular swap.

The only swap I'd be interest in is a motorcycle engine in the rear. I'm back and forth on if I want to do that. I doubt I could do it and stay good on points, so that might just push me to a turbo OEM engine. People have pushed Austin minis to 150hp without much trouble.

 

22 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Great questions!

 

In general, I think you have it right.  I would save the 100pts for the shocks though.  Just go With som3thing sporty "off the shelf".  I would also go with a pair or all 4 adjustable height aprings for 40 pts instead of spending half that on whatever springs.

 

Aero matters as well...

Yea, I'm not completely set on the adjustability. If I have the points to spare, I'll go for it, but if not then I can just use non-adjustable. All of the suspension redesign will be done in some pretty significant simulation, so I'll probably get it close enough and just iterate through a few non-adjustable options with real testing. How does this work with non-adjustable rate coilovers? Does that count as a non adjustable damper with an adjustable spring?

 

5 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

I'd think you could save some points by using nice of the shelf stuff for springs and shocks. Bilstein's are free and you can call Moog and get whatever spring you want for no points. Why 4 wheel steering? That car is tiny enough. I'd focus more on power. The cars here seem to be getting pretty fast. It would be no fun to zig zag thru the turns just to get blown by on the straights.  If you do run the turbo keep the boost down. What is the tank size? You might want to consider a cell, it is free and gives you 2 gallons extra. 

Fuel cell will likely happen, and I think the OEM tank is a decent size. The car will be so light that if I get the engine to 150hp it will probably be fine. I assume there are lap times posted from past races, and I'll be doing significant simulation pre-build to ensure I have the correct suspension and power to be competitive.

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39 minutes ago, ARJ0019 said:

The only swap I'd be interest in is a motorcycle engine in the rear. I'm back and forth on if I want to do that.

Well, you can quit debating that. 

4.5.5. Engine being swapped in must come from another vehicle in the VPI table, unless the Foreign Market Engine exception is used. 

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2 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Well, you can quit debating that. 

4.5.5. Engine being swapped in must come from another vehicle in the VPI table, unless the Foreign Market Engine exception is used. 

Yea, I figured it was not possible to do that and pass rules. This car is more of a dream build that I figured could compete in champ car without changing my goals much. Somthing about an Austin mini engine pushing 150hp just seems neat, so that's my current plan. Realistically, I'm 3 years out on this build. First step is going to be simulation, and I have a lot to do. I figure 1 year for simulation and design, 1 year for manufacturing, and a few months of testing/autocross. 

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There is a video out there of a motorcycle powered Mini and as I recall it seemed pretty damn quick.

 

I have no idea what they do with Mini's over in Europe for racing, but they seem to make them pretty fast from what I have seen at Goodwood and such. I get this is a dream build, but it seems the bones are there for a pretty competitive car without basically building a new chassis and dropping the body over it. The extreme light weight is a huge help.

 

On the flip side, I've seen them turn over just from getting crossed up as well. Never left the pavement and the guy was on his lid spinning like a top. 🤣

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27 minutes ago, Bandit said:

There is a video out there of a motorcycle powered Mini and as I recall it seemed pretty damn quick.

 

I have no idea what they do with Mini's over in Europe for racing, but they seem to make them pretty fast from what I have seen at Goodwood and such. I get this is a dream build, but it seems the bones are there for a pretty competitive car without basically building a new chassis and dropping the body over it. The extreme light weight is a huge help.

 

On the flip side, I've seen them turn over just from getting crossed up as well. Never left the pavement and the guy was on his lid spinning like a top. 🤣

Minis have a huge racing career; they are surprisingly competitive. I don't plan on going crazy with a space frame or anything like that. Essentially I'll be redesigning the subframes to support double a-arms optimized for the tires I select. The engines can be built to support some real competitive power for the weight. There's an annual race of mustangs and minis in Europe, and it's a very close completion.

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If you want to just build something crazy, and don't really care about the value (points) rules, build what you want and come race in the EC class.  You must follow the safety rules and tire rules.  I think you are basically "off the leash" for anything else!  ...as long as it isn't scary fast and creates a safety concern.

 

Note: tube frame, partial tube frame, and some other ideas are out, even for EC.

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On 6/5/2021 at 7:25 PM, wvumtnbkr said:

If you want to just build something crazy, and don't really care about the value (points) rules, build what you want and come race in the EC class.  You must follow the safety rules and tire rules.  I think you are basically "off the leash" for anything else!  ...as long as it isn't scary fast and creates a safety concern.

 

Note: tube frame, partial tube frame, and some other ideas are out, even for EC.

So that's a question I was planning on asking the people who write the rules. If I'm going to put a cage in the car, then I'm going to do it right and make sure it's optimized for stiffness. And then I'm doing custom tubular subframes, which I guess is still considered "bolt-on". This ends up being a tube frame car with a bit of body between the pieces. Is that a problem with rules?

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7 hours ago, ARJ0019 said:

So that's a question I was planning on asking the people who write the rules. If I'm going to put a cage in the car, then I'm going to do it right and make sure it's optimized for stiffness. And then I'm doing custom tubular subframes, which I guess is still considered "bolt-on". This ends up being a tube frame car with a bit of body between the pieces. Is that a problem with rules?

When you build something that is maybe pushing boundaries, a good idea is to keep tech informed through all of the steps.

 

At least explain to tech, before you build, what your intentions are.  Pictures and examples go a long way.

 

Good luck!

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With the current rules I would look into something like a honda D15 (60 ish points to swap) as the motor swap. You could then swap on some d16 parts for points or aftermarket. I think 110-120 wheel hp would make that car fly. This is assuming the D15 is reliable, something you want to actually work on etc. 

 

Common practice, you will find it is more point conscious to swap in a lower HP engine that you can fix with "fixed vpi" items after that swap (like cams) rather than swapping in a motor that uses all of your points and has to remain stock.

 

Either way this is going to be an uphill battle with your swap weight of 1200 lbs. The national champion, a CRX, was given a swap weight of twice that (2318). If you are serious about the build you may want to lobby for a higher swap weight, especially if you think the finished car weight has no possibility of being close to 1200 lbs. 

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5 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Isn't the 3 cylinder Ecoboost on the list? It's the size of a milk jug

 

I think it was designed to have the footprint of an A4 sheet of paper.  Which means you need one kinda strong dude to lift it out for the swap, no hoist or jacks necessary.

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19 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

 

I think it was designed to have the footprint of an A4 sheet of paper.  Which means you need one kinda strong dude to lift it out for the swap, no hoist or jacks necessary.

One guy carries the 12pack, the other guy the engine.

 

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Here is a dump from my swap calculator, as you can see it starts to get expensive after 90hp. 

 

image.png.a4d0f05640f8c59965bc782c56536435.png

 

If anyone wants to play around:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qZShtV0AMW4_TFFYkpKNcv_fP9CYxi4RX0b8t3apGdc/edit?usp=sharing

 

As mentioned above you want to find something that responds well to mods. Maybe find a 90hp engine with the biggest displacement. If you are lucky they might come alive with a tune and intake and free exhaust. Maybe a small truck engine?

 

I wonder how many points it would be to convert it a Honda D15B to VTEC? It's either 100pts for the head or 200pts (head+cam+valvetrain).

 

I guess if you take the points for the cam and valvetrain you might as well throw in some absurd cams or maybe the D15 VTEC OEM cams are already pretty aggressive. So 260 or 360pts for >130hp in a ~1200lbs car?

 

Edited by turbogrill
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55 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Here is a dump from my swap calculator, as you can see it starts to get expensive after 90hp. 

 

image.png.a4d0f05640f8c59965bc782c56536435.png

 

If anyone wants to play around:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qZShtV0AMW4_TFFYkpKNcv_fP9CYxi4RX0b8t3apGdc/edit?usp=sharing

 

As mentioned above you want to find something that responds well to mods. Maybe find a 90hp engine with the biggest displacement. If you are lucky they might come alive with a tune and intake and free exhaust. Maybe a small truck engine?

 

I wonder how many points it would be to convert it a Honda D15B to VTEC? It's either 100pts for the head or 200pts (head+cam+valvetrain).

 

I guess if you take the points for the cam and valvetrain you might as well throw in some absurd cams or maybe the D15 VTEC OEM cams are already pretty aggressive. So 260 or 360pts for >130hp in a ~1200lbs car?

 

 

Or a factory turbo engine that respond well (ie. doesn't explode) to turning the boost up a little since most of the supporting parts are free (injectors, computer, exhaust not included header...).

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On 6/7/2021 at 4:27 PM, Originalsterm said:

Or a factory turbo engine that respond well (ie. doesn't explode) to turning the boost up a little since most of the supporting parts are free (injectors, computer, exhaust not included header...).

Good luck finding a turbocharged engine with that little power!

Perhaps the ticket is to turbo the stock engine if it can handle a bit of boost. Won’t need much. 

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