Modify free poly bushings into offset bushings? points? free?

[turbogrill]

Hi,

 

These bushings are 5pts:

But these 0pts:

Can I modify a free non OEM part for free? 

 

Fasteners are free, so if I knock out the middle metal section and replace it with offset rod, essentially making the top one?

 

Or I get a set of solid metal bushings, fill the hole and redrill the hole.

Edited September 4, 2021 by turbogrill

[Black Magic]

You would be best off to slot the hole in the chasis, tack a washer on in the position you want and get good clamp load with the bolt to keep it offset.

[MR2 Biohazard]

Why are they 5 points? If you can just slot the chassis and get the same results why make a simple solution 5 points? Seems trivial to me.

[Ian]

37 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Why are they 5 points? If you can just slot the chassis and get the same results why make a simple solution 5 points? Seems trivial to me.

 

Because not all pickup points are slotable.

 

On our old car I re-drilled the front lower control arm mounting points to gain camber and caster, as well as fix the odd roll center caused by lowering the car.

 

On the new car, the pickup point I need to move is a stud attached to the body that would be difficult to relocate.  So I had to get creative in other ways.

 

Hence offset bushings are points.  This is a BMW rule as I understand it, because it's a common way they adjust things.

[turbogrill]

Since a polybushing and a offset bushing are about the same price I think they should be 0pts.

 

And almost everyone are running polybushings anyways, don't see how it would increase cost for anyone. Just make tires last longer.

 

Or is there a scenario where a poly bushing is $80 and the offset bushing is $800? If not you could modify a non-offset poly bushing into a offset poly bushing by just replacing the sleeve/rod/metal piece.

Edited September 5, 2021 by turbogrill

[Chris Huggins]

I’ve petitioned for this 3 years running now.

 

 

the majority of the board feels it’s a performance advantage and falls into the category of “no more free parts” which is a pretty popular feeling among members.

theres also the Argument of Speed creep, IE if a team is paying for camber/caster adjustment currently, allowing these bushings would give them 10 points back to spend on go faster parts.

 

the only parts which received greater support were ones where no performance advantage could be realistically argued (I.e. coolant expansion tanks), however there was still pushback from the second argument on these.

 

Until those attitudes/perceptions change I wouldn’t expect to find support elsewhere on the board.  (I support it, to be clear.)

 

 

[Bill Strong]

just cut the chassis mount out, and re-mount/weld them into a preferred location. 

 

And I agree, all those new free reliability parts like the expansion tank just made the E30/E36/E46 and Miata more reliable.
I would love to have free oil accumulators. Keeping engine oil off the track is much better than keeping water off the track.

My opinion as a racer, CCES member, and not one of the company I work for.

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

12 hours ago, Ian said:

 

Because not all pickup points are slotable.

 

On our old car I re-drilled the front lower control arm mounting points to gain camber and caster, as well as fix the odd roll center caused by lowering the car.

 

On the new car, the pickup point I need to move is a stud attached to the body that would be difficult to relocate.  So I had to get creative in other ways.

 

Hence offset bushings are points.  This is a BMW rule as I understand it, because it's a common way they adjust things.

Sorry, that still does not make much sense to me. On car A you have enough adjustment to get the alignment correct to get correct tire wear. In car B it does not have it, but you can drill a different hole and zero points. In car C it is a stub and needs and offset bushing so that one is is points. Now if I cut the stud and moved it that would be zero points. Why the heck are we making things like this points.

 

9 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

I’ve petitioned for this 3 years running now.

 

 

the majority of the board feels it’s a performance advantage and falls into the category of “no more free parts” which is a pretty popular feeling among members.

theres also the Argument of Speed creep, IE if a team is paying for camber/caster adjustment currently, allowing these bushings would give them 10 points back to spend on go faster parts.

 

the only parts which received greater support were ones where no performance advantage could be realistically argued (I.e. coolant expansion tanks), however there was still pushback from the second argument on these.

 

Until those attitudes/perceptions change I wouldn’t expect to find support elsewhere on the board.  (I support it, to be clear.)

 

 

We agree on something, this should be zero points and a no brainer to me. It does not add speed creep and really causes tires to just wear out early and adds costs to teams long term. I will put a petition in next year for 0 points bushings, even though I do not use them and did not even know about them until now. This is just plain stupid and we need to get rid of stupid or we are all doomed.

 

If we want to control speed creep worry about tires for crying out loud. This pitily argument stuff needs to end and we need to look at future instead of living in the past.

[MR2 Biohazard]

9 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

just cut the chassis mount out, and re-mount/weld them into a preferred location. 

 

And I agree, all those new free reliability parts like the expansion tank just made the E30/E36/E46 and Miata more reliable.
I would love to have free oil accumulators. Keeping engine oil off the track is much better than keeping water off the track.

My opinion as a racer, CCES member, and not one of the company I work for.

 

If only someone submitted a petition to encourage accusumps and make them free like every other racing organization out there. Dang it people, will someone finally put a petition in to get free accusumps already.

[Ian]

2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Sorry, that still does not make much sense to me. On car A you have enough adjustment to get the alignment correct to get correct tire wear. In car B it does not have it, but you can drill a different hole and zero points. In car C it is a stub and needs and offset bushing so that one is is points. Now if I cut the stud and moved it that would be zero points. Why the heck are we making things like this points.

 

Well, if we allow off the shelf offset bushings for those cars that they're available for at 0 points, you're giving a freebie to some but not others.  Why should an offset bushing be free, when an adjustable control arm isn't?

 

At some point someone decided that slotting holes is okay, and eccentric bolts are okay because "fastener" but that's where the line is.

 

Not saying I agree with the whole thing, but that's the way it is.

[Grant]

Agreed; camber stuff should just be free. Teams are going to find creative ways to get the camber they want; no point in making them jump through hoops, cluttering up the rulebook, and taking attention away from more material modifications. Especially since proper camber settings lower costs.

[MR2 Biohazard]

10 hours ago, Ian said:

 

Well, if we allow off the shelf offset bushings for those cars that they're available for at 0 points, you're giving a freebie to some but not others.  Why should an offset bushing be free, when an adjustable control arm isn't?

 

At some point someone decided that slotting holes is okay, and eccentric bolts are okay because "fastener" but that's where the line is.

 

Not saying I agree with the whole thing, but that's the way it is.

An adjustable control arm is not even the same league as an adjustable control arm. It is like saying, if we give free offset bushings that means we should allow triple adjust shocks for free.

 

My point is if you can do X and Y to get the same result as Z why are we pointing Z. Buy hey, I do not have a horse in this race so oh well if people want to keep on pointing things like this.  Camber should be free to get alignments correct to get tire wear down and give teams a chance to use tires more and save money. I am all about saving money.

[mcoppola]

@Grant and Troy @MR2 Biohazard thanks for providing so much info based on your experiences. Although not everybody agrees on everything all the time, you guys along with a few others, have brought up some really good information and valid explanations for the board and the membership to think about.
I, and I’m sure a lot of the membership, appreciate the passion that you guys show, and also the knowledge sharing. 
Hopefully we can all work together to keep this a great place for all of us to do our racing.

[mcoppola]

P.S. The words lower costs perk my ears up when I see them or hear them. Rules that help to achieve that are good for all of us. Finding the way to do it fairly for everyone is the part we need to work through together

[JDChristianson]

So, here is an issue that I see.   Every time we free points up on something, it allows those points to be used in something that likely gains performance.  That's just what happens.   I don't disagree with the idea of allowing things that increase reliability,  racing is more fun than watching with a broken car.  However, we rarely if ever see any sort of balancing of the free stuff with increases on the performance stuff.   This to me is where speed creep happens.    

 

I also find it interesting how everything is always "because it saves me money"    Offset bushings is just the latest one.  If it makes tires last longer, it must have something to do with using the whole tire and that is going to provide more grip and be faster.....but its always about "it saves money"    Now on the other hand  some platforms have always been allowed free modifications to suspension points to gain this advantage while others are not.  Yes I'm talking about the e30.  

 

 Maybe there should be a serious review of the bits that get charged points.   Maybe make the reliability stuff free and jack up the performance stuff.   An entire aero package should be more than 40points.   Should intakes be more?  Should headers be more?  etc. etc.   Giving points on one category should not be done with out adding points to the other stuff.  

[turbogrill]

I don't think the fast teams are taking points for offset bushings, they have the resources to reweld subframes and what not.

 

It's suckers like me that that don't own a welder that would either take the 10pts or pay someone a couple of hundred dollars to do it. I would much rather just pay $80 and spend 30min installing the bushings.

 

 

[Ian]

2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

An adjustable control arm is not even the same league as an adjustable control arm. It is like saying, if we give free offset bushings that means we should allow triple adjust shocks for free.

 

My point is if you can do X and Y to get the same result as Z why are we pointing Z. Buy hey, I do not have a horse in this race so oh well if people want to keep on pointing things like this.  Camber should be free to get alignments correct to get tire wear down and give teams a chance to use tires more and save money. I am all about saving money.

 

How so?

 

Sure, you can't make at the track adjustment to an offset bushing, but you could have a selection of arms with bushings at different angles on hand to make changes.

 

If those are free, why not something like this?

 

 

Vs the factory arm for my car.

 

 

How does that provide any benefit over an offset bushing?  These would have been the easy button for fixing our rear toe/camber but we have no points to play with so I got "creative".  It's a pain to align, but I got the settings I want at the cost of time.  An offset bushing, an adjustable arm, or the modified subframe all perform the exact same job, and lap time wise would be identical.

 

It's a very slippery slope.  First it's offset bushings, then it's single adjustable arms, then it's double adjustable arms, then its hiems.  I'm extremely hesitant to hand out any more free stuff.

[Grant]

1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

I don't think the fast teams are taking points for offset bushings, they have the resources to reweld subframes and what not.

Exactly. Are top teams camber constrained or taking points for bushings? I'd think not, so this is only going to help the back markers. This said you won't catch me using poly bushings unless there's no other option.

 

On adjustable arms vs. bushings, neither bothers me and my car needs neither. If a team runs both it's probably a sign they're trying to alter geometry, but one or the other I don't care about.

 

If a car has no stock camber adjustment I want them to be able to use something adjustable so they don't spend a zillion hours aligning their car.

[Grant]

50 minutes ago, Ian said:

It's a very slippery slope.  First it's offset bushings, then it's single adjustable arms, then it's double adjustable arms, then its hiems.  I'm extremely hesitant to hand out any more free stuff.

 

I don't know how you slip from a single camber adjustment to multiple (camber + caster) adjustment? Lots of series allow a single aftermarket camber adjuster to be installed.

 

On the subject of heims though, the series allows Delrin bushings at zero points. Those are essentially just as good for the cars that can use them. IMO any solid bushing should be points.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Grant

[MR2 Biohazard]

57 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

How so?

 

Sure, you can't make at the track adjustment to an offset bushing, but you could have a selection of arms with bushings at different angles on hand to make changes.

 

If those are free, why not something like this?

 

 

Vs the factory arm for my car.

 

 

How does that provide any benefit over an offset bushing?  These would have been the easy button for fixing our rear toe/camber but we have no points to play with so I got "creative".  It's a pain to align, but I got the settings I want at the cost of time.  An offset bushing, an adjustable arm, or the modified subframe all perform the exact same job, and lap time wise would be identical.

 

It's a very slippery slope.  First it's offset bushings, then it's single adjustable arms, then it's double adjustable arms, then its hiems.  I'm extremely hesitant to hand out any more free stuff.

I see the point then. On this part I see that you could simply weld the right arm/hole, redrill it to make it just right. You would buy the adjustable one, get it exactly right, but a stock one, modify it, weld to it, drill it and make it the same length. That is what I would do. I might even make up 2 or 3 different ones so I could adjust the length, as needed for different tracks. Nelsons is an example in which you have more camber on the left than the right. In the end get the same result, but a lot more work.

 

I do wonder what cars do not have enough camber as needed to get even tire wear?

 

Then I ask this question. Should we apply point to items that make adjustments for suspensions? Is that something that we want to worry about all that much? To me, I would not care to be honest. I am not really worried about an adjustable control arm. I am worried about real hp differences and points. Headers equal X, things like that. I am also more worried about tires than anything else. To me, until we address tires and find a way to point/rate/penalize for tires used the rest really is realy pointless.

 

We are worrying a 5 or 10 point offset bushing, that, if you want to argue, at best makes a .1-.2 second a lap different and ignoring what can make a 1-3 second a lap difference. That really just baffles me.

[TimS]

On 9/5/2021 at 9:00 AM, turbogrill said:

Since a polybushing and a offset bushing are about the same price I think they should be 0pts.

 

And almost everyone are running polybushings anyways, don't see how it would increase cost for anyone. Just make tires last longer.

 

Or is there a scenario where a poly bushing is $80 and the offset bushing is $800? If not you could modify a non-offset poly bushing into a offset poly bushing by just replacing the sleeve/rod/metal piece.

I’m using OEM rubber offset bushing on my E30 and I get hit with the points as well. No way the rubber bushing is a performance piece. Was on car when I bought it 

[Grant]

Rubber bushings usually out-perform poly. No friction (just spring rate), and they are loaded in tension and compression instead of just compression. Plus they last a lot longer.

[MMiskoe]

One thing the book is lacking is language that states "a free part that provides the same modification as a part listed as a specific number of points still counts as the listed points". 

 

In other words, your wing made out of duct tape is still a wing even though tape is free.  Otherwise you could say that a spherical bearing is just a hardware item.  Hardware is free.

 

In my opinion - Offsetting a suspension pick up point is 5 points.  Doesn't matter how you arrive at it.  But my opinion is not likely to hold as much water as others.

 

And if cost was an issue, well, then I want more displacement, more fuel capacity and stickier tires.  Because if I can just have all that for free, then I can spend less money on developing the parts within the rules and spend that extra money on entry fees.

 

 

[turbogrill]

Yes, that always confuses me. If you are crazy and owns a shop you could build a wing from your door. Would probably cost a lot of time&money but 10pts to spend on engine swap.

 

Maybe the focus should be that parts that make life cheaper and easier should be free? Examples mentioned are radiators and camber related stuff.

 

I guess hubs is gray area, if you get beefier hubs for reliability then that is great. But $$$$ lightweight titanium hubs purely for more performance is a different thing. (Not sure there is such a thing)

 

 

[enginerd]

22 hours ago, turbogrill said:

I don't think the fast teams are taking points for offset bushings, they have the resources to reweld subframes and what not.

 

It's suckers like me that that don't own a welder that would either take the 10pts or pay someone a couple of hundred dollars to do it. I would much rather just pay $80 and spend 30min installing the bushings.

You may be the only team in ChampCar without the ability to weld? Is this more common than I think?