Share your swap points

[ETR]

For those that are willing, I'm looking to find out the following-

 

Your car

Power output stock

Swap engine power output

Swap points

 

My motivation from a miata perspective- The argument against adjustable shocks is one about cost, "everyone else will think they need them thus increasing costs".  As such its a decent point hit, 100pts.  Ok I get it.  100pts seems to go a really long way with swaps though, certainly with a much bigger impact to laptimes and the wallet.  Swaps seem oddly cheap on the points (at modest levels).

 

My thoughts- Among the many factors it takes to do well, including luck, it takes a fast car.  The upper echelon of champcar miatas really seem to be trending toward swaps.  Playing with the swap calculator, 100pts gets me another 50hp swapped into my '99 miata.  So here I am, either doing the calculator wrong or feeling like I need to spend a lot of money.  

 

Care to share?

 

 

[turbogrill]

Before I got my NC I thought about a K swapped Miata, https://kpower.industries/ ,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine
 

There is a bunch of options between 150-167 hp that would work and be 50-70 extra points. 

 

A trick that people is doing seems to be to swap in a 50pts engine and then add a cam for 50pts. That can give you more power than 100pts on the swap. (very true for domestic old large displacement engines).
 

Edited October 6, 2021 by turbogrill

[enginerd]

42 minutes ago, ETR said:

For those that are willing, I'm looking to find out the following-

 

Your car

Power output stock

Swap engine power output

Swap points

 

Playing with the swap calculator, 100pts gets me another 50hp 171 horsepower swapped into my '99 miata.  So here I am, either doing the calculator wrong or feeling like I need to spend a lot of money.  

 

Care to share?

Stock HP is irrelevant. I edited your post.

[ETR]

4 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Stock HP is irrelevant for the calculator but helps understand the gainz bro. I edited your post.

I edited yours too. 

[QuaTTro]

18 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Before I got my NC I thought about a K swapped Miata, https://kpower.industries/ ,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine
 

There is a bunch of options between 150-167 hp that would work and be 50-70 extra points. 

 

A trick that people is doing seems to be to swap in a 50pts engine and then add a cam for 50pts. That can give you more power than 100pts on the swap. (very true for domestic old large displacement engines).
 

Don't those kpower options all cost more than the allowed $2500 cost of a swap? 

 

[enginerd]

3 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

Don't those kpower options all cost more than the allowed $2500 cost of a swap? 

Yes.

 

You would have to do a lot of custom fabrication yourself, modeled after the Kpower kits. A fully bought Kpower kit would not be legal for a ChampCar swap.

[mcoppola]

Sure, I'll share - here's my 2 cents worth.

Swaps were introduced into Champcar to help old cars that were no longer competitive because either they didn't have enough hp, or couldn't find parts any more for their old engines. Instead of good racecars going by the wayside, these cars could then be more competitive by allowing them to swap in a different engine, drivetrain,, etc. 

 

Swaps nowadays for some folks are:

"Let's see where we can find a flaw in this calculator or method, and come up with a lightweight, high hp, fuel rich, xxx type of combination to build because it looks better than many real cars' combinations that are on the VPI list."

Add to that the fact that where "weight" was once used in the calculator to prevent PWR of 12.5:1 or lower, the "Weights" are now bastardized into something called "SPV" that allows rulesmakers to set any value determined to be feasible pointwise.

 

Having worked on the TAC since its' inception, and knowing how much time the TAC and BoD spend on swap issues alone, along with the fact that the whole reasoning behind them has been contorted, misconstrued, gamed, etc. - I have much disdain for swaps.

[mcoppola]

56 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Before I got my NC I thought about a K swapped Miata, https://kpower.industries/ ,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine
 

There is a bunch of options between 150-167 hp that would work and be 50-70 extra points. 

 

A trick that people is doing seems to be to swap in a 50pts engine and then add a cam for 50pts. That can give you more power than 100pts on the swap. (very true for domestic old large displacement engines).
 

This alone illustrates my point.

Our former CEO, Mike Chisek saw this problem coming and submitted a petition that would not allow swap engines to be further modified from their oem configuration and true (yeah right) incoming horsepower. (Edit: the petition was voted down)

I've been told there was also a plan or discussions about grandfathering old swaps, and beginning to narrow down, scrutinize, or prior approve all future swaps.

Just as the BoD has closed the door to anything newer than 15 years recently, I am hoping swap rules will be looked at too.

Both of these items - new cars, and swaps - have the greatest potential to upset the current competitive balance - something that is delicate, and can be easily F'ed up.

Edited October 6, 2021 by mcoppola

[turbogrill]

26 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Yes.

 

You would have to do a lot of custom fabrication yourself, modeled after the Kpower kits. A fully bought Kpower kit would not be legal for a ChampCar swap.

 

The engines are cheap and the metal to do the kit is not that expensive. So I could buy the kit and make a replica my self.  The kit is $2100. And all the other oil stuff that is needed I can buy used from ebay or rockauto.

 

I forgot that intakes are now points! So the Kswap is not the best for a Miata nowadays.

For my Datsun (150pts) I was looking for a really cheaty swap. I ended up selling the car but agree there is a lot of "cheating" you can do with swap. Something like a stockish GM3800 would be good for that car and in spirit of rules.

But a old SBF V8 or a BMW N54 turned out to be the most power per VPI. None of those are good or easy options and I don't think that was the spirit of the rules.

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by turbogrill

[wvumtnbkr]

1989 Mazda rx7.

150 hp stock.

200 hp gm v6 swapped in

52 pts added (iirc).

 

The torque is much appreciated with the swap from a rotary.

 

I did swap the trans also (for 25 pts).

[Black Magic]

On the neon I am finishing up 

 

150 hp stock 2.0 liter

150 hp 2.4 engine swapped in (same family)

50 points added. 

 

The swap adds a significant amount of torque and moves the engine speed down 1000 rpm (20%, the same as the displacement increase). This helps a ton with the durability, in particular when you run cams, exhaust, and headwork to make more power (requires more engine speed). The 2.4 most people use from the PT cruiser is also far easier to find than the original 2.0 DOHC, which is getting harder to find (majority of neons are SOHC). 

 

15 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Our former CEO, Mike Chisek saw this problem coming and submitted a petition that would not allow swap engines to be further modified from their oem configuration and true (yeah right) incoming horsepower. (Edit: the petition was voted down)

 

I think that would only work if we banned all motor work for the series and moved the swap pwr limit for many cars high enough that they would not need engine mods to match the performance of the rest of the series. For cars with honest swap weights you have to "double dip" and mod the swap engine to keep up with the jones. Could be done, just would require some rework of the rules and would require repowering many of the swap cars. I would most likely have to swap in a K motor from a Honda to get into the 170 wheel hp window it would take to compete; for many cars this is alot more expensive that swapping in a motor from the same family and using mods on that larger displacement or better motor to get to the needed power. 

 

I also proposed doing an "engine calculator" where all cars would enter their engine mods (the stuff we track in VPI) in the calculator to give an "estimated" power. This estimated power would be used like the power field in the swap calculator, to give a vpi value. Things like cams, headers, etc would be multipliers on the base hp of the engine you are using. This would allow some control over "double dipping", without outright banning it (hopefully forcing less cars to swap to a different swap engine). 

[Andrew D Johnson]

38 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

I also proposed doing an "engine calculator" where all cars would enter their engine mods (the stuff we track in VPI) in the calculator to give an "estimated" power. This estimated power would be used like the power field in the swap calculator, to give a vpi value. Things like cams, headers, etc would be multipliers on the base hp of the engine you are using. This would allow some control over "double dipping", without outright banning it (hopefully forcing less cars to swap to a different swap engine). 

If you take a 126hp D16Z6 from a 1995 Civic Si and dyno it with a good tune, you will make 120whp. 
If you add:
Intake manifold
Throttle body
Headers
3" Exhaust 
Aftermarket ignition 
Aftermarket fuel injectors
High flow fuel rail

You will now make 130whp, that is an 8% power increase. 

If you made those same  type of changes to a 1982 SBC rated at 145hp, what % power increase would you likely see? 

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

16 hours ago, mcoppola said:

This alone illustrates my point.

Our former CEO, Mike Chisek saw this problem coming and submitted a petition that would not allow swap engines to be further modified from their oem configuration and true (yeah right) incoming horsepower. (Edit: the petition was voted down)

I've been told there was also a plan or discussions about grandfathering old swaps, and beginning to narrow down, scrutinize, or prior approve all future swaps.

Just as the BoD has closed the door to anything newer than 15 years recently, I am hoping swap rules will be looked at too.

Both of these items - new cars, and swaps - have the greatest potential to upset the current competitive balance - something that is delicate, and can be easily F'ed up.

 

I agree Mike that swaps have added much work to the series and we need to take a look at a long term path forward.  It is a ship that has sailed so they are here to stay, and for the most part rightfully so, but maybe we can keep control with a few tweaks.  We will come to you guys for input on the direction.  

[MR2 Biohazard]

36 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

I agree Mike that swaps have added much work to the series and we need to take a look at a long term path forward.  It is a ship that has sailed so they are here to stay, and for the most part rightfully so, but maybe we can keep control with a few tweaks.  We will come to you guys for input on the direction.  

I agree the ship has sailed. I do not see swapped vehicles being an overwhelming winner at every race. I do not see them killing the field. I do agree we might want to tweak some rules to make sure there is a measure of control there.

 

17 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Sure, I'll share - here's my 2 cents worth.

Swaps were introduced into Champcar to help old cars that were no longer competitive because either they didn't have enough hp, or couldn't find parts any more for their old engines. Instead of good racecars going by the wayside, these cars could then be more competitive by allowing them to swap in a different engine, drivetrain,, etc. 

 

Swaps nowadays for some folks are:

"Let's see where we can find a flaw in this calculator or method, and come up with a lightweight, high hp, fuel rich, xxx type of combination to build because it looks better than many real cars' combinations that are on the VPI list."

Add to that the fact that where "weight" was once used in the calculator to prevent PWR of 12.5:1 or lower, the "Weights" are now bastardized into something called "SPV" that allows rulesmakers to set any value determined to be feasible pointwise.

 

Having worked on the TAC since its' inception, and knowing how much time the TAC and BoD spend on swap issues alone, along with the fact that the whole reasoning behind them has been contorted, misconstrued, gamed, etc. - I have much disdain for swaps.

Just to make sure about history.  Swaps were in Champcar from day one and a big reason why the series is here. I was at the first races and built a car, bio1, with a swap from day one with Chumpcar as the place to go to race it. It was started out specifically as a builders series and promoted swaps, tinkering and ingenious ideas.  Without swaps the series would have never survived and we would not be here today as the car counts would have been to low to pay the bills. I also think that is still true today.

 

If someone has a master list and knows which cars are swapped. If we eliminate all those cars from the series could we survive? Someone should do this and take away all the entry revenues and look at our books. As it is we would be so in red we would be out business in months.  I think with massive restructuring it is a maybe though. No more west coast races, that is for sure. No more smaller tracks that loose money, yup, dump those. I would say about half or less of the schedule and only picks tracks that make good money and hopefully they still make money with lower car counts. Then the appeal of Champar and options of tracks goes away so people will start to go elsewhere. WRL would love this to happen. They would snatch up our teams and our track dates.

 

1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

I also proposed doing an "engine calculator" where all cars would enter their engine mods (the stuff we track in VPI) in the calculator to give an "estimated" power. This estimated power would be used like the power field in the swap calculator, to give a vpi value. Things like cams, headers, etc would be multipliers on the base hp of the engine you are using. This would allow some control over "double dipping", without outright banning it (hopefully forcing less cars to swap to a different swap engine). 

Wouldn't this really just make it a power to weight point calculator?  I do think different cars take to mods different. A SBC can make 150hp, put a cam in it and now makes 300hp. On a modern car a 4cy can make 160hp and with cams make 175hp.

 

As much as it pains me I agree on the double dipping as I have a complete head with cams in it in my shop. My example.  MR2 swap is 190hp at 66 points and give me enough points to do others things to make the car decent, aero, suspension, hubs, accusump, ect. If I use the 225hp engine it is 447 points added.  If I put cams in the engine the 190hp engine can make like 225-240hp, depending on how crazy you go. The same hp, 190 is 66 points, 225 is 447 points, but if you use the 190 and cams you are at 106 points for the same end result. 

[mcoppola]

1 hour ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

I agree Mike that swaps have added much work to the series and we need to take a look at a long term path forward.  It is a ship that has sailed so they are here to stay, and for the most part rightfully so, but maybe we can keep control with a few tweaks.  We will come to you guys for input on the direction.  

Agree 100% on all counts. Swaps are definitely here to stay and do make sense in many cases. People have brought up very good examples, and currently race viable swaps - swaps that are not upsetting the balance of the series. 

My comments were meant to illustrate just how delicate keeping that balance is.

 

edit before posting: I just read @MR2 BiohazardTroy's post before submitting...

I didn't mean for my comments to portray eliminating swaps. I was pointing out how much work is involved not only in classifying a new car, but looking at the possibilities of "what are they going to do with that drivetrain once it's on the VPI list?" As in "Bingo, this drivetrain can now be swapped into XXX car.!!!"

 

So yes, don't worry that swaps will be banned or anything like that. My comments merely illustrated how smart racers can "game" the system, and how hard the TAC and BoD are working to scrutinize this to keep our balance. There are some smart people involved in those groups and I've come to learn how SPV does make more sense than weight in some instances to prevent or allow certain combinations. Current and past cars running in the series and the effect on them is ALWAYS considered in any recommendations the TAC and BoD consider.

[mender]

1 hour ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

If you take a 126hp D16Z6 from a 1995 Civic Si and dyno it with a good tune, you will make 120whp. 
If you add:
Intake manifold
Throttle body
Headers
3" Exhaust 
Aftermarket ignition 
Aftermarket fuel injectors
High flow fuel rail

You will now make 130whp, that is an 8% power increase. 

If you made those same  type of changes to a 1982 SBC rated at 145hp, what % power increase would you likely see? 

So now that we all know the special case of the lazy '70s and 80's American V8s, put in a clause to either adjust them to a reasonable number or disallow them as swap material.

 

Don't screw up the rest of the swaps. And while you're at it, get the swap weights back to reality so the swap calculator makes sense again.

Edited October 7, 2021 by mender

[Snorman]

The swaps would be a helluva lot more palatable if it weren't for manipulated VPI or swap weights for cars like MR2s, E30s and Civics/CRXs (that literally have a HIGHER swap weight in the calculator than their actual curb weight). But somewhere along the line, somebody whispered in somebody else's ear so that this was manipulated to allow, for example, E30s to swap and stay at/under 500 points.

How about this...use real weights instead of fictitious weights and if the car can swap it can, if it can't it can't. 

[mender]

42 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

As much as it pains me I agree on the double dipping as I have a complete head with cams in it in my shop. My example.  MR2 swap is 190hp at 66 points and give me enough points to do others things to make the car decent, aero, suspension, hubs, accusump, ect. If I use the 225hp engine it is 447 points added.  If I put cams in the engine the 190hp engine can make like 225-240hp, depending on how crazy you go. The same hp, 190 is 66 points, 225 is 447 points, but if you use the 190 and cams you are at 106 points for the same end result. 

The same can be said for cars that are on the edge of the power to weight target. Some are over that target. Add a couple of engine mods and they are quite a bit over the target. Why should some cars be allowed to go over the target and others not, based solely on whether they are swapped or not? 

 

Since you brought up the MR2, let's look at that.

 

1993 MR2 Forced Induction with 200 hp: 400 points. Run the car through the swap calculator using the stock 200 hp as the "swap" and it adds 107 points because of the power to "weight" for a total of 507 points, showing that it's already above the target.

 

How is that fair to cars that are having to abide by the swap calculator points? Can I apply for the MR2 Turbo discount of 107 points on my swapped car?

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by mender

[turbogrill]

Ignoring unfair swap weights, how much of a problem are these "cheaty" V8 swaps?

 

The fastest cars seems to run OEM motors: Nemesis NC, WTF, Sahlen, Visceral, "Mustang team", Lucky, etc, etc?

 

I haven't seen a 400hp SBF 240sx yet.

 

I think it's great that people can use $300 engines, makes engine failures more of a hassle than an economical disaster. 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by turbogrill

[MR2 Biohazard]

30 minutes ago, mender said:

The same can be said for cars that are on the edge of the power to weight target. Some are over that target. Add a couple of engine mods and they are quite a bit over the target. Why should some cars be allowed to go over the target and others not, based solely on whether they are swapped or not? 

 

Since you brought up the MR2, let's look at that.

 

1993 MR2 Forced Induction with 200 hp: 400 points. Run the car through the swap calculator using the stock 200 hp as the "swap" and it adds 107 points because of the power to "weight" for a total of 507 points, showing that it's already above the target.

 

How is that fair to cars that are having to abide by the swap calculator points? Can I apply for the MR2 Turbo discount of 107 points on my swapped car?

 

I think a lot of cars, if not most,  that if you put in the same hp you get a higher value. Just grabbing some. Only exception would be if the swap calculator showed 50 points as it is at or below the 50 points.

 

S2000 = 240hp = 500vpi- put swap in and 1404 points

99 integra type r = 450vpi - 170hp - swap is 501

Nissan SER-R 505vpi- 260hp = 815vpi

BMW e46 2.5 530vpi- 215 hp = 581vpi

CTS 500vpi 500vpi - 255hp = 620vpi

Prelude 400vpi - 200hp = 463vpi

95 Cobra 325vpi - 240hp = +133 = 458vpi

SC300 500vpi = 225hp = 551vpi

Boxster 2.5 475vpi = 201hp = 539vpi

Boxster 2.7 520vpi= 228hp = 738vpi

93 miata 250vpi = 116hp = 300vpi- only 50 points- interesting

 

After doing this exercise this might show that a swapped vehicle can be at a disadvantage compared to a non swapped car with the vpi values.

[Andrew D Johnson]

8 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think a lot of cars, if not most,  that if you put in the same hp you get a higher value. Just grabbing some. Only exception would be if the swap calculator showed 50 points as it is at or below the 50 points.

 

S2000 = 240hp = 500vpi- put swap in and 1404 points

99 integra type r = 450vpi - 170hp - swap is 501

Nissan SER-R 505vpi- 260hp = 815vpi

BMW e46 2.5 530vpi- 215 hp = 581vpi

CTS 500vpi 500vpi - 255hp = 620vpi

Prelude 400vpi - 200hp = 463vpi

95 Cobra 325vpi - 240hp = +133 = 458vpi

SC300 500vpi = 225hp = 551vpi

Boxster 2.5 475vpi = 201hp = 539vpi

Boxster 2.7 520vpi= 228hp = 738vpi

93 miata 250vpi = 116hp = 300vpi- only 50 points- interesting

 

After doing this exercise this might show that a swapped vehicle can be at a disadvantage compared to a non swapped car with the vpi values.

Good point, thanks for bringing this up. I think there are more pieces to this than some people realize. 

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

15 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

Good point, thanks for bringing this up. I think there are more pieces to this than some people realize. 

 

That's why we have to think only about capping or limiting, not wholesale changes.

[turbogrill]

39 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think a lot of cars, if not most,  that if you put in the same hp you get a higher value. Just grabbing some. Only exception would be if the swap calculator showed 50 points as it is at or below the 50 points.

 

S2000 = 240hp = 500vpi- put swap in and 1404 points

99 integra type r = 450vpi - 170hp - swap is 501

Nissan SER-R 505vpi- 260hp = 815vpi

BMW e46 2.5 530vpi- 215 hp = 581vpi

CTS 500vpi 500vpi - 255hp = 620vpi

Prelude 400vpi - 200hp = 463vpi

95 Cobra 325vpi - 240hp = +133 = 458vpi

SC300 500vpi = 225hp = 551vpi

Boxster 2.5 475vpi = 201hp = 539vpi

Boxster 2.7 520vpi= 228hp = 738vpi

93 miata 250vpi = 116hp = 300vpi- only 50 points- interesting

 

After doing this exercise this might show that a swapped vehicle can be at a disadvantage compared to a non swapped car with the vpi values.

 

Does that mean the swap weights are too low? Or their VPI to low

 

[tommytipover]

2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Just to make sure about history.  Swaps were in Champcar from day one and a big reason why the series is here. I was at the first races and built a car, bio1, with a swap from day one with Chumpcar as the place to go to race it. It was started out specifically as a builders series and promoted swaps, tinkering and ingenious ideas.  Without swaps the series would have never survived and we would not be here today as the car counts would have been to low to pay the bills. I also think that is still true today.

Gosh, from where I was watching, V6 MR2s with giant wings on them damn near turned the series into something resembling late model stock car racing, and are responsible for a good number of rule changes and heartache over the last ~5years.

[Black Magic]

4 hours ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

If you take a 126hp D16Z6 from a 1995 Civic Si and dyno it with a good tune, you will make 120whp. 
If you add:
Intake manifold
Throttle body
Headers
3" Exhaust 
Aftermarket ignition 
Aftermarket fuel injectors
High flow fuel rail

You will now make 130whp, that is an 8% power increase. 

If you made those same  type of changes to a 1982 SBC rated at 145hp, what % power increase would you likely see? 

 

Many of those items you listed are not controlled by the VPI points, or don't add to the power at all (A fuel rail change on a 126 hp engine...is a -1 line?)

 

So you are talking 8% for the following

 

Intake manifold
Throttle body
Headers

 

Agreed on smog era motors you can get some sizeable gains doing something like a 2 barrel to 4 barrel conversion with headers. Stock 305 here rated for 145 hp made 230 hp with similar  

 

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/ccrp-9903-305-chevy-small-block-engine-build/

 

Intake 

Carb

Headers

 

About 60% gain. 

 

Under the current rules both of these engines use the same VPI points for mods. At least with some sort of engine calculator you would have the option to put in extra fields like displacement to further scale the results and get a better fit (the big offenders have low hp rating per displacement).  

 

The poor correlation of points to actual power for the engines you list are equally a problem for swap and non swap cars.