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VPI incorrect for Golf/Rabbit


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Someone posted about a typo in the VPI but it's buried in the 12 pages of arguing about swap weights. 

 

 

 

I will just copy and paste from facebook where the same question was posted: 

 

"

I have been looking at the VPI tables, and have a question. Is the Mk5 2.5 5cyl. Rabbit approved for racing in Champcar?
I ask because the tables show the Golf/Rabbit as a 4cyl. up to 2008. The Rabbit was a 5cyl. starting in 2006."

 

"The 2.5 came in:
2005.5-2013 Jetta
2006-2009 rabbit
2010-2013 golf
2007?-2013 beetle
All all 07k 5cyl 2.5 NA models.
Not TT,
ttrs and RS3 is a 5cyl 2.5 but turbo and direct injection. With a 07k block code but different head, crank, pistons etc
"

 

I don't even know if there ever was a Mk5 4cyl in the US. Maybe the 2004 Golf/Rabbit was a Mk4

It seems like wikipedia is a bit fussy on it. Seems like the 150hp 2.5 has always been in the base model.

Edited by turbogrill
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The Mk5 came with 3 different 4 cyl engines, a turbo gas 2.0 in the GLI/GTI, a 1.9 Pumpe Duese turbo diesel in 2006 Jettas, and a 2.0 common rail turbo diesel starting in MY09.

 

The 5 cyl list also left out the MY11-14 Passat.

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On 10/27/2021 at 11:20 AM, turbogrill said:

I don't even know if there ever was a Mk5 4cyl in the US. Maybe the 2004 Golf/Rabbit was a Mk4

It seems like wikipedia is a bit fussy on it. Seems like the 150hp 2.5 has always been in the base model.

 

There wasn't, at least specifically a non-turbo engine for the base Jetta/Golf/Rabbit models. As Robmink said, there were higher trim models that came with VW/Audi's FSI turbo 4cyl direct injection engine (among other engines), however the 2.5l 5cyl was reserved for base model duty only. The non-turbo 4cyl was last used in the base Mk4 Jetta/Golfs (Rabbit didn't come back as a model until the Mk5 generation). 

 

I think the intent of the VPI table entry was to encompass both the Mk4 and Mk5 base models but tech/BOD didn't know about the 5cyl engine replacing the 4cyl engine for those trims in the Mk5 generation. VPI table could definitely be updated to clarify that detail. Don't know if the 5cyl engine would warrant a VPI adjustment, but it is interesting that a base Mk5 golf would be valued the same as a base Mk4 golf. 

 

Coincidentally I personally know the guy who posted about this and I have a sneaking suspicion he's looking to bring a Mk5 golf with the 5cyl that he and a couple friends used/uses for One Lap of America to ChampCar. Very well built car that's likely not too much work away from being an above average runner in CCES

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18 minutes ago, freshmaker_phd said:

 

 

There wasn't, at least specifically a non-turbo engine for the base Jetta/Golf/Rabbit models. As Robmink said, there were higher trim models that came with VW/Audi's FSI turbo 4cyl direct injection engine (among other engines), however the 2.5l 5cyl was reserved for base model duty only. The non-turbo 4cyl was last used in the base Mk4 Jetta/Golfs (Rabbit didn't come back as a model until the Mk5 generation). 

 

I think the intent of the VPI table entry was to encompass both the Mk4 and Mk5 base models but tech/BOD didn't know about the 5cyl engine replacing the 4cyl engine for those trims in the Mk5 generation. VPI table could definitely be updated to clarify that detail. Don't know if the 5cyl engine would warrant a VPI adjustment, but it is interesting that a base Mk5 golf would be valued the same as a base Mk4 golf. 

 

Coincidentally I personally know the guy who posted about this and I have a sneaking suspicion he's looking to bring a Mk5 golf with the 5cyl that he and a couple friends used/uses for One Lap of America to ChampCar. Very well built car that's likely not too much work away from being an above average runner in CCES

 

Thanks!

 

There is a billion different makes and models of all cars so it's understandable they don't get it right. I think they focus on the most common platforms.

 

Someone should do a VPI request and add some data, I guess the question is if the Turbo 2.0 is more or less points than the NA 2.5?

 

It seems like the  turbo GTI has 197hp vs 150hp so I would think the 2.5 would be lower in VPI. The 2008+  170hp was only due to a tune? Or was it intake as well? If it's only a tune then I guess it's 197 vs 170hp.

 

 

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57 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

Someone should do a VPI request and add some data, I guess the question is if the Turbo 2.0 is more or less points than the NA 2.5?

 

It seems like the  turbo GTI has 197hp vs 150hp so I would think the 2.5 would be lower in VPI. The 2008+  170hp was only due to a tune? Or was it intake as well? If it's only a tune then I guess it's 197 vs 170hp.

 

 

 

VW did factory "tune" the 5cyl starting in the 2009 MY to coincide with the Mk6 generation's introduction that increased the 5cyl's HP from 150 to 170. Not sure of whether it's purely software, hardware, or both. An aftermarket tune appears to only net about 45HP at most as shown by this VW tuner's site.

 

That said the 16v 4cyl found in the base trims of VWs from 1999-2004 is rated at about 115HP... so the 5cyl netting a +35-55HP gain in a chassis that's arguably better than that which preceded it should probably be reflected in the VPI value in some way.

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4 minutes ago, freshmaker_phd said:

 

VW did factory "tune" the 5cyl starting in the 2009 MY to coincide with the Mk6 generation's introduction that increased the 5cyl's HP from 150 to 170. Not sure of whether it's purely software, hardware, or both. An aftermarket tune appears to only net about 45HP at most as shown by this VW tuner's site.

 

That said the 16v 4cyl found in the base trims of VWs from 1999-2004 is rated at about 115HP... so the 5cyl netting a +35-55HP gain in a chassis that's arguably better than that which preceded it should probably be reflected in the VPI value in some way.

 

Got it. Then the 197hp turbo would be +100vpi the 115hp I guess

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22 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

Got it. Then the 197hp turbo would be +100vpi the 115hp I guess

 

Maybe... but then you're comparing a Mk5 to a Mk4. I don't know whether that makes a lot of sense. Two completely different chassis/generations of car. In my mind...

 

A 2006 GTI (197HP 2.0L turbo 4cyl) should be +100pts from a 150HP 2.5L 5cyl Golf/Rabbit

A 2003 GTI (180HP 1.8L turbo 4cyl) should be +100pts from a 115HP 2.0L 4cyl Golf

 

 

Ultimately I have no dog in this race. If a change is needed anywhere in the VPI, it's to at least acknowledge that the Golf/Rabbit from 2005-2009 is a 5cyl vehicle, not 4cyl. That would answer the existing question. Whether or not a VPI change is needed is entirely up to people a lot smarter than I at understanding whether a given chassis is more performant than another.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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