Motion Sickness

[Grant]

5 hours ago, jim161c said:

Maybe try a helmet that is sealed really well with a blower unit that is filtered. The fumes may be the issue as you surmise, especially since you have had CO poisoning in the past. 

 

What sort of helmet are you referring to?

 

5 hours ago, jim161c said:

Also - try this out. My wife has inner ear issues and these exercises seem to really help.

 

https://www.thealternativedaily.com/how-to-balance-crystals-in-your-ear/

 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/bppv-why-loose-ear-crystals-make-you-dizzy-and-how-to-fix-them/

 

Thanks, might be good tips for others but I've never had any sort of vertigo or dizziness while driving.

 

3 hours ago, Ron_e said:

If you only get sick in races I would target that.  What are you doing, feeling, eating different on race day that you are not on all other days?  Even something like race day only Gator-ade can be a cause.  Nervousness, worried about the car?  Stressed about beating/matching your teammate?  I would suggest talking to a sports psychologist and maybe some hypnosis as the "only at races" sounds like a mental cause if you can't duplicate the nauseous feeling with the same race rituals (food, sleep, etc) and lap time on a practice day at the same track.  Regardless of practice or race I get sick at about the same time so mine would be a physical issue.

 

Thanks but I'm pretty sure it's motion + smell related. I've felt not-great behind smelly Miatas at the Firm, and a good bit worse at WRL Road Atlanta. To put it politely ChampCars are not exactly the best smelling race cars out there. Ozarks being > 50% FCY (by time, not laps) didn't help. At Sebring I had no FCYs and drove great, the only recent race I've done where I didn't get sick to any significant degree (even without Scopolamine, which I'd prefer not to use as it increases reaction times).

Edited May 10, 2022 by Grant

[jim161c]

a helmet/system like the NASCAR drivers wear. 

Also - the inner ear may be a source of your motion sickness - worth giving it a shot, nothing to lose.

[frankrehnelt]

We have a driver with the same symptoms. His nausea comes on most during full course yellows. We’ve tried all of the above but still have some work to do with fresh air. His next step is to get more fit. His heart rate is higher than any other time than it is driving a race car. Add motion, adrenaline spikes, exhaust etc to him working so hard might cause some of his problems. He’s going to try a treadmill next. 

[Justin Andress]

 

Some advice given to me by my team mates.

[ben 594]

If nobody else will say it I will.

 

@Grant it's time for you to drive slowly.  I have a Lincoln with a lazy boy seat even trade for the NC.

 

experience less gee's and have more fun.

 

 

[ross2004]

CO filter for a helmet blower: http://trackfresh.com/TF-Products-2010.html

[Chris Huggins]

1 hour ago, ross2004 said:

CO filter for a helmet blower: http://trackfresh.com/TF-Products-2010.html

 

Nice!  $200 for an activated carbon filter and some 3d printed housings.

 

Chumpy version incoming for my car, anyone else interested shoot me a PM and I can add you to the list.  

[jim161c]

these are nice system- https://pitstopusa.com/c-133778-safety-equipment-driver-cooling-helmet-blower-systems.html

Edited May 10, 2022 by jim161c

[TimS]

You likely have after effects of your CO poisoning event and you may have an issue with breathing the exhaust from your own car as well as other cars under yellow. A helmet blower with a carbon filter and a double check of the exhaust routing of your car. An easy treatment is oxygen why feeling nauseous. Having been exposed to CO more than I should have during years of working on boilers and furnaces as well as racing. I feel the effects quicker than the early years when it didn’t bother me at all. I do use a helmet blower and leave the boiler tune ups to the young kids. Even mild CO exposure can cause nausea and dizziness. I hope you find a solution. We all would hate to see you have to quit racing. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by TimS

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

@Grant Do you think the long travel and the late nights working on the car at the track could have contributed to effects you had during the race?  I know you guys fought through a lot of issues both nights which the lack of rest could have piled on to the susceptibility of motion sickness.  Both nights you guys had to mess with fuel and brake pad dust which also can't be good.  I just hope you figure it out.

[TAlexander]

18 hours ago, Grant said:

I've started spinning myself around in an office chair with the wheels removed to try and treat my motion sickness. After 3 sessions I've gone from 3 minutes with some nausea at the end to being ok after 5 minutes, so it's definitely increasing my tolerance to spinning around in circles.

 

If this doesn't treat my sickness I may have to quit racing. Scopolamine keeps me from throwing up but I feel horrible when driving. At a track like Ozarks I simply didn't trust myself to drive well while nauseous.

 

My problem may have been caused by my brain associating exhaust smells with CO poisoning I got years ago, so it may not work. Unfortunately I only get sick in races, so I can't really test the efficacy of the treatment.

Grant you may look into a Counselor trained in EMDR to treat this condition, since its linked to a past issue.  The brain can remember some associations that can be very difficult to overcome otherwise. Let me know if you want further info.

[Grant]

11 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

@Grant Do you think the long travel and the late nights working on the car at the track could have contributed to effects you had during the race?  I know you guys fought through a lot of issues both nights which the lack of rest could have piled on to the susceptibility of motion sickness.  Both nights you guys had to mess with fuel and brake pad dust which also can't be good.  I just hope you figure it out.

 

No, we do lots of late nights with little sleep racing and testing; there's no correlation with sickness. I find I can drive at my peak if I get at least 4-5 hours.

 

9 hours ago, TAlexander said:

Grant you may look into a Counselor trained in EMDR to treat this condition, since its linked to a past issue.  The brain can remember some associations that can be very difficult to overcome otherwise. Let me know if you want further info.

 

Hmm, thanks, I'll look in to this. The Barany chair is said to work really well with pilots so I'm going to keep spinning myself around.

 

I don't think ambient CO during ChampCar races is my problem. I'd think I breath in a lot more of it when dynoing and don't get sick. And I can ride through the mountains staring at a laptop and not get sick. I think it's a combination of fumes and motion. Still CO meters are cheap, so it's an easy thing to test.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Grant

[Ron_e]

On 5/10/2022 at 1:42 AM, Grant said:

 

Thanks but I'm pretty sure it's motion + smell related. I've felt not-great behind smelly Miatas at the Firm, and a good bit worse at WRL Road Atlanta. To put it politely ChampCars are not exactly the best smelling race cars out there. Ozarks being > 50% FCY (by time, not laps) didn't help. At Sebring I had no FCYs and drove great, the only recent race I've done where I didn't get sick to any significant degree (even without Scopolamine, which I'd prefer not to use as it increases reaction times).

 

Then I would look at an off-road type blown air charcoal filtered system... and a Darth Vader looking helmet - ha.

 

Sebring is flat with long straights so less likely for the motion aggravation, I wouldn't even take gravol there.  As odd as it sounds, if there is no straight to let things settle then motion sickness comes on much sooner.  One of our local tracks is flat but very short straights with 14 turns in 2.7 km and I get motion sickness there (without gravol) as most every turn is 90 degrees or more.  At a wide open track with more gentle turns like COTA I had zero issues even without gravol.

 

Yes the odours will aggravate so that sounds like something you need to tackle for sure.

[Philip944]

Grant

 

I'm a little late to the discussion but thought I'd share this and hope it helps.  This is what I posted over in the Ozarks thread:

 

Seems a lot of guys experienced some degree of motion sickness this weekend.  One of our drivers got sick on Friday during the end of the practice session and again on Saturday.  His also got worse during the FCY laps.  He may or may not have vomited in his mouth and swallowed it at least once (three times actually) during a FCY to protect his face, balaclava, helmet, suit and the belts.  For those curious, he reports that it burns the same going back down as it does coming up.  He quickly tapped out after that.  Obviously, he was super apprehensive about Sunday in the heat.  We got some less drowsy Dramamine from the grocery and he took a dose Saturday night.  I believe it also calls for another dose in the morning, but he didn't take that dose secondary to concerns about side effects on race day.  He didn't have any ill effects Sunday morning and felt great during a long 2hr stint in the warm afternoon.  He proclaimed that it helped him so much he wants to appeal for a Dramamine sponsorship and wants to put a Dramamine sticker on the side of the car.  For reference, he's never had motion sickness issues while driving before.  Riding yes, but not driving.  We as racers are used to lateral G loads, but I don't think we're nearly as used to lateral AND vertical G loads, sometimes at the same time, as this track proved to some.  Moral of the story, try some Less Drowsy Dramamine.  

[theflyingferret]

OP update here...

 

Firstly, thanks for everyone who has contributed to this discussion with their own experiences and suggested solutions. I feel a little better in that I'm clearly not on my own with the motion sickness...seems a lot of us suffer it behind the wheel.

 

We ran at CMP a few weeks ago, our first race since VIR last Dec. I'll firstly point out that I haven't suffered motion sickness at CMP previously, largely because it's relatively flat...been going there for 5-6yrs now. I went into the weekend with a sinus infection and migrane headache which certainly wasn't ideal so I'm pleased to report I suffered no motion sickness or motion-induced headache throughout the weekend. A trip to an emergency clinic on Friday meant I had steroids and anti-biotics by mid-afternoon, but I stayed out of the car on Friday as I just didn't feel up to it in the heat.

 

I got a decent night's sleep on Friday night (and I certainly think fatigue and lack of sleep is a contributing factor to motion sickness for me). Took first stint and slowly eased into the race for the first 15-20mins, thereafter I was able to drive the car pretty much flat out. Had to deal with a good amount of oversteer but even then I had no issues, no nausea, no headache (except the left-overs of the sinus migrane from the previous few days).

 

What changes did we make?

- Vented the cabin...double NACA duct with venting providing fresh air directly pointed toward the helmet from the dash.

- Exhaust routing. The tip of the exhaust broke at VIR anyway so needed replacing. We went from a passenger-side exit to a traditional full length design...gases are now left behind that car rather than pumped out along side it. Additionally we put a bigger muffler on the car which toned down the volume a decent amount - loud exhausts are no fun with cracking headaches and I think this is one of the reasons they last so damn long during a race weekend.

- Breathing. I was very conscious of what some people had described regarding elevated heart rate and even holding their breath with nervousness or tensions based on the environment they are suddenly thrust in. On the straights I was consciously telling myself to breathe deep, slow, consistent breathes. not sure if I suffered i this way previously but it was worth trying to do anything I could to improve the situation so...

- Drinks bottle. I'd never run with one before (yeah, now I know!). I filled it with a gatorade-zero/water/ice mix and just sipped at it every 10-15mins throughout the stint. It was empty by the end of the 2hours. I certainly felt the benefits of having this throughout the stint, just in dealing with the heat and keeping energy levels up. It maybe helped to keep the stomach calm too?

- Eating before the stint. I don't typically eat anything until late morning so I've skipped breakfast before getting in the car in the past. I think I ate a small sub sandwich and a banana...the aim of loading up some carbs and sugar. Also drank plenty of water before the stint. The idea here was to avoid any potential hypoglycemia. I don't know if I suffer from acute drops of blood sugar but my doctor mentioned this when I described the motion sickness nausea plus the intense headaches. He said the headaches are not typically related to motion sickness nausea so there maybe more than one underlaying cause.

- Rear Springs - We increased the spring rate, went from H and R blue to H & R reds. The chassis does appear to roll less than it did (it certainly felt better) but from some camera footage of a following car I've seen since it's still rolling more than I'd like. We actually tried even stiffer springs on Saturday but the car's handling was poor (the oversteer I mentioned above).

- Driver focus points. I personally think this is a largest contributing factor to motion sickness for me. I've known for many years to look down the track, find distant reference points to naturally steer to etc...the whole "eyes up" thing. The thing here is that I think I am inconsistent at practicing this throughout a stint. Like with the breathing I was self-coaching while in the car telling myself to keep my eyes up, look down the track, around the corner. I should also note that I loosened my HANS off a little bit, I was quite restricted in turning my head left and right. I know in left turns the window net, roll cage (A-Pillar) and roll cage padding restrict the view out of the left side of the car. I'd imagine this is similar for most of us though.

 

Did I take any meds? No. I went armed with dramomine (didn't help at all at VIR), meclizine and scopolimine patches. I intended to run on Friday without taking anything and then take the meclizine on Saturday if needed. The sinus thing had me on other meds and I didn't want to take anything else unless absolutely needed - which it wasn't.

 

So, good result...but it's CMP which has never been an issue. It does seem like we are directionally correct at least with the changes. We are entered in the VIR24 which while I am hopeful, still leaves me concerned...especially the night stints which I imagine will crank the anti up further. The elevation changes mixed with the roll of the car is what makes those "eyes up" focus points all the more difficult to find. This also aligns really well to the theme-park motion sickness I typically suffer. Coasters I'm ok because I can look ahead to the next drop, raise or turn, but anything that spins, moves up and down repeatedly or swings I'm screwed. I would like to enter the event with no meds. Just employ the learnings and the changes as described above...but I'm not sure this will be enough. My plan is to test the scopolomine patch a few weeks before the event to understand the side-effects. If I'm not getting anything detrimental to driving then I'll wear a patch as a precaution.

 

Apologies for the ramble. I hope someone can take benefit from something here. I'm open to further suggestions also so please keep those coming. I'll write up another update after VIR...fingers-crossed.

 

 

 

[Matt]

Got sicker that I have ever been sick at the Roval 2 years ago and then at AMP before I found the solutions that worked best for me. 

 

1. Made sure I was high enough in the seat so I didn't have to much stationary items in my vision while looking out. 

2. Making sure I was more secure in the seat. ( padding, belts, things like that so I wasn't sliding as much) since you're sharing the seat with possibly different body types. 

3. Overall fitness improvement. 

4. Best thing was starting ginger pills a few days before the race. (the non-drowsy form of dramamine)

5. Drank some Ginger Ale before my stint. Gave me a sugar boost and a shot of ginger. Carbonation helped settle the stomach too. 

 

1,2,&4 absolutely made the biggest change for me and making it the full 2 hrs for a stint. I don't feel sick at all anymore. I will instantly get sick if the padding shifts and I sink in the seat. 

 

Hope you got some good input and something helps. 

[Wheelman_99 - C Rallo]

It never ceases to amaze me how different we all are and the solutions we come with on our own and together for problems. I've only been motion sick once in my life and it wasn't at a track, but I read the whole thread to learn so that I will be able to help customers, clients and teammates in the future. Great stuff guys!

 

And props to the OP for the update! There are so many threads on the internet with no resolution... 

[Ron_e]

On 7/18/2022 at 3:34 PM, Matt said:

Got sicker that I have ever been sick at the Roval 2 years ago and then at AMP before I found the solutions that worked best for me. 

 

1. Made sure I was high enough in the seat so I didn't have to much stationary items in my vision while looking out. 

2. Making sure I was more secure in the seat. ( padding, belts, things like that so I wasn't sliding as much) since you're sharing the seat with possibly different body types. 

3. Overall fitness improvement. 

4. Best thing was starting ginger pills a few days before the race. (the non-drowsy form of dramamine)

5. Drank some Ginger Ale before my stint. Gave me a sugar boost and a shot of ginger. Carbonation helped settle the stomach too. 

 

1,2,&4 absolutely made the biggest change for me and making it the full 2 hrs for a stint. I don't feel sick at all anymore. I will instantly get sick if the padding shifts and I sink in the seat. 

 

Hope you got some good input and something helps. 

 

Agree on 1.

For sure on 2.  That can be a real factor and should be emphasized as it has been missed so far.  Sliding around in the seat will aggravate the motion sickness.  Similar to a softly sprung car.

For sure on 3.

Disagree on 4.  Like everything can build up a tolerance so I prefer to hit the body with the full effect right before a race.

Point 5., there actually isn't any ginger in most gingerales, a few have a tiny bit.  The CO2 will make you burp to help settle the stomach before getting in the car but the continued burping may not make you feel well.  If it works for you though, continue on.

[theflyingferret]

OP update #3:

 

Alright, so fresh off the back of the VIR24 here...and good news.

 

I got through 2 x 2hr and 1 x 1hr stints (plus 25min practice before the race) with no repeat of the motion sickness I had previously suffered at Road Atlanta or during VIR North last year.

 

Meds:

Dramamine: Ineffective in fighting the motion sickness for me.

 

Scapolomine Patches: I tested one of these things a few weeks ago. I have no idea if they would be effective but for me the side-effects were less manageable than the motion sickness. I got flu-like fever, headache and joint aches...a mild case dry-mouth (no issues with this) and drowsy...as in; I took 2 afternoon naps and still slept 10 hours that night. I took the patch off after 7hrs. Scapolomine not for me....but at least I didn't get hit with the short term memory loss some people mentioned!

 

Meclizine (aka Bonine "Less Drowsy": WINNER!

 

Bonus - You can get it over the counter.

Non Drowsy Bonine for Motion Sickness with Meclizine Hydrochloride, Count - Walmart.com

 

I also gave Meclizine a trial early last week. No side effects at all.  For the race I tried to space taking them out by as close to 12hours as I could. The idea being to take one 30min to 1hr before getting on the track. I took one at 8pm the night before the race to get the stuff into my system and then another at about 8am the next morning (I was in the car first for practice at 8.30am). I suffered no motion sickness at all during my 25mins on the track despite my unfamiliarity with the Full course which includes the uphill esses, the drop after turn 10 and the continuing elevation changes for the rest of the lap. I also took the first stint in the race which started at noon...again, no issues and I completed 2hrs absolutely elated because I'd finally managed to stay in the car for more than 45mins on such an awesome track...my driving was even benefitting markedly. My second stint started around 8pm...another hour and no issues. This was perhaps a better test with the light failing and our feeble attempt at LED lighting providing almost zero visibility. I actually stayed close to a slower pace car for a few laps just so I could use their lights to see where the hell I was going but after the sun went down I had to bring the car in for lighting mods. I slept between 2am and 4.30am...popped another Meclizine at 5am before my third stint started in the dark at 5.30am. We had an LED light bar on the car at this point so I could see the track...again, another 2hours and no motion sickness.

 

To book-end the medication topic I highly suggest if you are planning on trying one of the above (or any) meds during a race weekend please trial them at home before you do. You need to understand the side-effects of these things before getting in something as potentially dangerous a racecar. This past weekend would not have gone well for me at all if I'd gone in cold with a Scapolomine Patch so please take precautions with this stuff.

 

While I don't know if my issue is fully resolved I do think I've made huge progress. I'm just stoked because I was really wondering if I needed to stop doing something I really enjoy. Here is my personal recipe for tackling motion sickness:

 

Driver:

1) Use Meclizine as described above (only after trialing it first on a lazy day at home)...I also used daily ginger pills and multi-vitamins throughout the week before and during the race. Could be placebos but who cares?

2) Drink a bottle of water and eat something carb-heavy 30min before a stint.

3) Use a drinks bottle in the car - Gatorade Zero and Ice work well for keeping up hydration levels and alertness in check. I was taking big sips down the back straight most laps.

4) Get as high in the seat as you can (within helmet/roll bar distance rules allowance). We have the OEM dash in our car and adding extra padding to the seatbase has helped me see more of the immediate ground and reduced the influence of the line of the dash against the horizon in my general vision. This was mentioned by Matt above and I made this change before CMP but forgot to mention it in my previous update. It's just a theory but can't hurt. I guess we could've nixed the dash maybe too to accomplish the same thing.

5) Get in shape, hit the gym...improve your cadio. Yeah, I've not done this either but it can't do any harm surely!

6) I chewed spearmint gum during my stints...thought it might help the stomach but who knows if it had any influence at all?

 

Car:

1) Eliminate all sources of exhaust gas leakage.

2) Run the exhaust pipe out to the back of the car (no side exits).

3) Use a muffler and reduce high DB noise. It's often underestimated just how fatiguing and headache inducing consistent ~100db noise can actually be. I guess you could mould your own ear plugs around ear pieces too.

4) Increase spring rate and roll stiffness as much as you can before the handling falls off. I think changing to stiffer rear springs on our E36 has helped my situation quite a bit.

5) I second Matt again on the seat padding suggestion. I need to make some improvements here still. Those uphill esses really helped make me aware just how much I was getting thrown side to side. We have an XL seat to accommodate a large spread in driver height/weight/shape etc! I'm the shortest guy on the team and fat twig at that, so there'll defo be some padding in the sides that'll I be making up that can go in and out with me during driver changes.

6) Vent the cabin with ducting and a naca intakes...some people use in-line blowers. Get fresh air constantly moving through there to keep temps reasonable and to push out any trapped exhaust gases.

 

Driving:

1) EYES UP. EYES UP. EYES UP. Outside of the meclizine this I think is the single biggest contributor keeping the motion sickness at bay. Do your research on unfamiliar tracks you are going to...and one's you've been to before. Youtube is a great resource for track guides and step-by-steps/turn-by-turns. Identify distant and other reference points that you can use to track your eyes around the course. I'm not talking about driving performance gainers...this is different from turn-in, braking and apex markers. You're looking for stationary marshall posts, towers, trees, lamp posts, buildings, flag poles etc that can give your brain reference for a general target to subconsciously point the car toward while it is rotating, rolling, pitching and yawing around. Look down the track and look around the corners; background, not foreground.

2) Breathe. Relax as much as you can and be conscious of your breathing....keep that oxygen coming in. Deep breaths.

 

 

Ok. I'm boring myself now with these ramblings. Thank you again to everyone who has made suggestions on tackling motion sickness. Hopefully there's enough within these pages to help anyone who might be suffering with similar issues. We might do VIR-N at the end of the year and Road Atlanta in Feb is very likely. I'll update after these events...hopefully it's short and says "Good to go". If anyone has any silver bullets out there please add them in below.

 

Cheers,

Ferret.

[Sharky 2]

Thank you! During the last race a Sebring my motion sickness caused my 2 hour stint to be 23 minutes and that was because my crew had to get a driver ready and a team mate moved out of the pits. I am going to try everything 

[ETR]

Seeing this again reminds me we've had positive results with some recommendations on here.

 

I had a new driver last year that got hit pretty hard with the motion sickness.  Frequent smoker, blue collar worker who's very used to fumes, smells, just about anything that would irritate a normal human.  

 

The motion sickness hit him HARD after about a half hour.  Totally overcome by all sensations, and specifically he's talking fumes and smells were triggering something for him.  We've never had a hint of those issues in that car for anyone, so I'm a bit lost at that point.

 

Discussions start after the race weekend about a "fresh" air setup.  I'm thinking, man if it's smells from inside/around the car it's gonna be the same air.  I'm skeptical.  Either way we pursue it, with some encouragement of this thread.

 

We put in a Rugged Radios forced air system with one hose, sorta pulling from just inside the passenger window with no ducting to it.  It was a game changer for him.  Even though it's pretty much the same air he was breathing before, just that movement of forced air through the helmet helped him an immense amount with the smells and overall feeling of comfort.

 

I don't use it because I don't have a helmet attachment yet, but I'd recommend based on what I've seen.

[Bill Strong]

I have also seen helmet blowers with carbon monoxide filters.  I have one that we used in my MR2.  It worked pretty well.