Bosch Electric Power Steering Pump from MiniCooper

[atxe30]

Anyone have any experience with the Bosch pump from a mini? Gonna do the electric pump in the boxster, and a new Bosch is about the same as a lightly used pump out of a 996/GT3.

 

 

[Ian]

We used the pump out of a Volvo S40 on our old car.  Worked excellent.  Big power and ground, and a single signal wire to tell it to turn on and that's it.

[QuaTTro]

1 hour ago, Ian said:

We used the pump out of a Volvo S40 on our old car.  Worked excellent.  Big power and ground, and a single signal wire to tell it to turn on and that's it.

We have a similar volvo pump

[veris]

Plus 3 on the volvo pump.

[mhr650]

I did some research on these electric power steering pumps. There are many different pumps out there, but when you investigate them, they are like many things OEM, the same but with small differences for packaging reasons. The big difference we need to be concerned with is if the pump requires CAN bus signals to operate, some manufacturers use vehicle speed and steering angle sensors to vary the output of the pump. Even if you have an aftermarket ECU which can communicate in CAN it is pretty much impossible to know that signals the pump is looking for. Fortunately for our purposes some of the pumps have simple hookups, a high-power wire with an 80 amp fuse and ground, then a wire to tell the pump when to turn on. Its best to have the trigger wire only activated once the engine is running so you don’t have such a big current draw while cranking.

 

The most popular pump for racing seems to be from a Vauxhall/Opal Astra, if you look at a picture of one of these pumps it is clear it is the pump Porsche Motorsports sells for big money. The difficulty for us is that those were never sold in the US so you can’t just run down to the local junkyard to pick one up. If you search eBay for electric power steering pumps and limit the search to US, by far the most hits will be for the Volvo, or the Mazda3. The Mazda pump requires CAN inputs, so it is pretty much out unless you want an even bigger science project. The internet wisdom on the Volvo pump is that if you hook it up with only the single trigger wire it runs in limp mode with the output capped at 70-80%. I believe this may be why the Astra pump is more popular with the drift and autocross crowd, you get full boost, but for our purpose 70% of full power from the Volvo pump would probably be more than adequate, we don’t really care about parking lot steering effort, or very high-speed changes in direction.

 

All that said, it appears that the Mini pump is one of the simple pumps which will run without CAN and should work fine. I am leaning towards the Volvo pump for my car.

[mcoppola]

33 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

I did some research on these electric power steering pumps. There are many different pumps out there, but when you investigate them, they are like many things OEM, the same but with small differences for packaging reasons. The big difference we need to be concerned with is if the pump requires CAN bus signals to operate, some manufacturers use vehicle speed and steering angle sensors to vary the output of the pump. Even if you have an aftermarket ECU which can communicate in CAN it is pretty much impossible to know that signals the pump is looking for. Fortunately for our purposes some of the pumps have simple hookups, a high-power wire with an 80 amp fuse and ground, then a wire to tell the pump when to turn on. Its best to have the trigger wire only activated once the engine is running so you don’t have such a big current draw while cranking.

 

The most popular pump for racing seems to be from a Vauxhall/Opal Astra, if you look at a picture of one of these pumps it is clear it is the pump Porsche Motorsports sells for big money. The difficulty for us is that those were never sold in the US so you can’t just run down to the local junkyard to pick one up. If you search eBay for electric power steering pumps and limit the search to US, by far the most hits will be for the Volvo, or the Mazda3. The Mazda pump requires CAN inputs, so it is pretty much out unless you want an even bigger science project. The internet wisdom on the Volvo pump is that if you hook it up with only the single trigger wire it runs in limp mode with the output capped at 70-80%. I believe this may be why the Astra pump is more popular with the drift and autocross crowd, you get full boost, but for our purpose 70% of full power from the Volvo pump would probably be more than adequate, we don’t really care about parking lot steering effort, or very high-speed changes in direction.

 

All that said, it appears that the Mini pump is one of the simple pumps which will run without CAN and should work fine. I am leaning towards the Volvo pump for my car.

Thanks for some great info on this topic.

So these pumps just replace the belt driven pump? You can use your current steering rack and just use this to push the fluid through it?

The OEM system on the Focus is known to overheat, and develop seal leaks. 

The OEM system also needs extra cooling to somewhat survive. 

I've always been curious why the system runs so hot. Is it because of high rpm of the belt driven pump? Or is the fluid getting heated up in the rack under operation?

Will a small electric pump such as the ones discussed still have fluid heating issues, or does this solve them? (If caused by high pump rpm?)

[Chris Huggins]

 

Some Astra's made it across the pond as Saturn's.  NLA from anywhere I can see, but you may find one on Copart or Car-Part.com

[atxe30]

ya i went looking for the astra pump, and they are hard to find. 

 

@mhr650 The lightly used pump i found is actually the porsche motorsports one, so i guess the astra. I agree, 70-ish% boost is likely fine for CC stuff. I considered going to manual (the car is only going to weigh ~2375, but it would actually require a different steering rack apparently so easier to just drop the engine driven pump to grab some small amount of hp gain from parasitic drag reduction, and go with electric.

[veris]

2 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Thanks for some great info on this topic.

So these pumps just replace the belt driven pump? You can use your current steering rack and just use this to push the fluid through it?

The OEM system on the Focus is known to overheat, and develop seal leaks. 

The OEM system also needs extra cooling to somewhat survive. 

I've always been curious why the system runs so hot. Is it because of high rpm of the belt driven pump? Or is the fluid getting heated up in the rack under operation?

Will a small electric pump such as the ones discussed still have fluid heating issues, or does this solve them? (If caused by high pump rpm?)

 

These pumps replace the belt driven pump. You can use your current steering rack; just need to change the input and output hoses. 

 

The OEM belt driven pump is intended to run at 2500 rpm for 99% of its life.  While racing we are averaging more then twice that so it is generating extra heat and pressure. 

 

The large electric pump should resolve most of your heating issues. I'd keep any oem cooling in place.  Note the electric pumps are generally larger then the belt one. Weight is similar. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by veris

[mhr650]

Another big benefit for the Boxter would be not having to run lines the length of the car, you should only need a foot of so of hose to hook the pump up. On race cars with a lot of room under the hood you should be able to place one in a good location to make the installation and plumbing very simple, also if you had a spare pump with the appropriate fittings it should only take a few minutes to replace one during a race.

 

I agree, the biggest factor in power steering fluid overheating is spinning the pump at high rpm for long periods of time, it just means a lot more fluid which must be bypassed all the time. These electric pumps have circuity inside to sense the load and vary the pump speed, so while they may draw up to 80 amps for a full lock situation, when the steering wheel is not moving right or left, they draw very little power.

 

I thought that in the past these pumps were charged 10 points but reading through the 2022 rules I don’t see them listed, and power steering components included in the no points category.

[mcoppola]

Thanks @veris and @mhr650 .

We completely removed our P/S system, but I saved all the lines, fittings, brackets, parts, etc.

We ran Gingerman and Mid Ohio without P/S this past season. 

For a FWD car running 245's on 9" wide rims, the effort was manageable, but the driving experience was more taxing than it had been before.

We are looking at EAPS systems, but I like the simplicity of this electric pump and just running new or modified lines to the rack.

 

edit: you're correct @mhr650 power steering components are zero points, per the 2022 BCCR.

Edited December 15, 2021 by mcoppola

[atxe30]

55 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

Another big benefit for the Boxter would be not having to run lines the length of the car, you should only need a foot of so of hose to hook the pump up. On race cars with a lot of room under the hood you should be able to place one in a good location to make the installation and plumbing very simple, also if you had a spare pump with the appropriate fittings it should only take a few minutes to replace one during a race.

 

I agree, the biggest factor in power steering fluid overheating is spinning the pump at high rpm for long periods of time, it just means a lot more fluid which must be bypassed all the time. These electric pumps have circuity inside to sense the load and vary the pump speed, so while they may draw up to 80 amps for a full lock situation, when the steering wheel is not moving right or left, they draw very little power.

 

I thought that in the past these pumps were charged 10 points but reading through the 2022 rules I don’t see them listed, and power steering components included in the no points category.

ya, def makes the runs super short, and the frunk on the boxster is wide open, even more so since i'm dropping power brakes and abs and going to a dual master pedal box setup. i could easily hide a body in there................

 

 

[QuaTTro]

We found a nice clean way to put the volvo unit in our trunk as it fit perfectly in the hole where that odd plastic cover was located.  Just need to run the lines and power.

[QuaTTro]

Here is the factory pump location...nice and high up on the very front of the engine.  

[turbogrill]

20 hours ago, atxe30 said:

Anyone have any experience with the Bosch pump from a mini? Gonna do the electric pump in the boxster, and a new Bosch is about the same as a lightly used pump out of a 996/GT3.

 

 

 

I planned to LS swap my 996, this was the answer I got regard PS:

 

"Electric power steering in the front is the easiest solution. I recommend an Opel Astra H power steering pump, it is the same as the Porsche Motorsports pump, but much cheaper. We plan on selling brackets soon"

[mender]

11 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

Some Astra's made it across the pond as Saturn's.  NLA from anywhere I can see, but you may find one on Copart or Car-Part.com

Here's the Porsche pump:

 

And here are the two Astra pumps:

2009 Saturn Astra

Select Vehicle Options to Narrow Down Results

4 Cyl 1.8L DOHC (OPEL)

Select Model Code

Filter Results

Complete Categories

Body Moldings, Sheet Metal, Rear Compartment Hardware, Roof Hardware

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Body Mounting, Air Conditioning, Audio/Entertainment

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Body Wiring, Roof Trim

•  

Brakes

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Brakes, Rear Axle, Propeller Shaft, Wheels, Tires

•  
•  
•  

Cooling System, Grille, Oil System

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Engine

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Frames, Springs, Shocks, Bumpers

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Front Axle, Front Suspension, Steering

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Front End Sheet Metal, Heater, Vehicle Maintenance, Fluids, Lubricants

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Fuel System, Exhaust, Emission System

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Interior Trim, Front Seat Trim, Seat Belts

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Maintenance Parts, Fluids, Capacities, Electrical Connectors

 

Rear Glass, Seat Parts, Adjuster

•  
•  

Rear Seat Trim, Carpet

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Starter, Generator, Ignition, Electrical, Lamps

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Transmission - Automatic

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Transmission - Manual

•  
•  
•  
•  

Windshield, Wiper, Mirrors, Instrument Panel, Console, Doors

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

2 Power Steering Pumps found for the vehicle you selected.

• 

   

  Shop related parts

  Pump,P/S

  Part Number: 93179568

  Vehicle Specific

  Other Name: PUMP, Power Steering; Power Steering Pump

  • Fitting Vehicle Options: AR,AT48(EXC NR1,NS2)

   
• 

   

  Shop related parts

  Pump Kit,P/S

  Part Number: 93196804

  Vehicle Specific

  Other Name: PUMP, Power Steering; Power Steering Pump

  • Fitting Vehicle Options: AR,AT(NS1,NS2,NR1)
  • Replaces: 93196064

Edited December 16, 2021 by mender

[mender]

14 hours ago, mhr650 said:

The most popular pump for racing seems to be from a Vauxhall/Opal Astra, if you look at a picture of one of these pumps it is clear it is the pump Porsche Motorsports sells for big money. The difficulty for us is that those were never sold in the US so you can’t just run down to the local junkyard to pick one up. 

Four pages of them on:

https://car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

(Didn't link correctly but search 2009 Saturn Astra Steering Pump)

 

And four Saturn Astras (rebadged Opel Astra) at my local junkyard.

Edited December 16, 2021 by mender

[mhr650]

The one from the Saturn is the later model ZF pump they call the ribbed bottom, compared to the smooth bottom pump made by TRW. I can’t remember exactly but when I was doing research the TRW pump was considered superior for some reason. As said earlier in this thread if the difference is that the TRW pump is capable of more assist that difference would be irrelevant for our purpose.

[mender]

It would be interesting to find out if there is a way to adjust the assist/feel. I imagine it would require CAN signals.

[Team Infiniti]

39 minutes ago, mender said:

It would be interesting to find out if there is a way to adjust the assist/feel. I imagine it would require CAN signals.

Most pumps are in limp mode without the can, one would have to design a controller.

[mindspin311]

The Hong Norrth guys have EPS working on the MX3, I believe is the same system that came from engine donor Mazda3. They even have a knob on the dash to turn up/down the assist. @revvhappy might be able to get you some info.

[Grufton]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:33 AM, mcoppola said:

you're correct @mhr650 power steering components are zero points, per the 2022 BCCR.

 

Hang on, there's more to that:

 

4.3.2:  Power Steering - Electro-Hydraulic Power Steering conversion - 10 pts

 

4.7.2. Items that are point free... Power Steering Components

 

edit:  As noted below - I didn't catch this change for 2022...  more free stuff it seems.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Grufton

[veris]

You are quoting 2021 rules; expire in 14 days. This changed in the 2022 version. 

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

38 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

Hang on, there's more to that:

 

4.3.2:  Power Steering - Electro-Hydraulic Power Steering conversion - 10 pts

 

4.7.2. Items that are point free... Power Steering Components

 

I think you must have pulled up the 2021 rules. 

[mcoppola]

Working with Chrysler products over the past 30 years, I thought I saw some electric hydraulic pumps on some of our products. Yes, they were used on the 2011-15 Charger, Challenger, and Durango. They are a bit more pricey than the Astra, Mini, or Volvo units. I saw some doubters on some forums about the capabilities of electric hydraulic pumps in general, but their use on a performance car such as a Challenger should dispel some of those rumors.

Edited December 17, 2021 by mcoppola