Is the new Lifeline Zero 2020 system acceptable for our use?

[obscene]

This updated fire system from Lifeline appears to be a newer version of the common Zero 2000 systems. It meets all the requirements of the BCCR except where 3.9.1.2 specifies "either AFFF/FE-36/NOVEC 1230"

 

The Zero 2020 system utilizes ABF foam which Lifeline claims "delivers the fastest heat absorption and knock down capability on the market"

 

https://www.lifeline-fire.com/zero2020fia30ltrfiremarshalmechanicalfiresuppressionsystem.aspx

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Bill Strong]

I have submitted a tech desk question. 

It should be allowed, but let's see what the BOD says. 

[obscene]

Thanks, Bill. I submitted one too, but haven't heard back yet.

 

Ticket tracking ID: JGS-TBX-T1EP

[obscene]

Just bumping this back up. Is anyone else shopping new fire systems this year?

[Gkuhn41]

20 hours ago, obscene said:

Just bumping this back up. Is anyone else shopping new fire systems this year?

Yup, were waiting on this as well.

 

[chbright]

Make that 3 of us now lol

[Bill Strong]

Count 4 now.

 

The board doesn't talk to me. I have given them all of the info. If they don't announce the addition of this in a new revision of the 2022 BCCR, I will ask again at the BOD meeting.

[obscene]

9 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

Count 4 now.

 

The board doesn't talk to me. I have given them all of the info. If they don't announce the addition of this in a new revision of the 2022 BCCR, I will ask again at the BOD meeting.

 

Thanks, Bill. Appreciate your help with this.

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

I have not seen this question presented to me through our usual board communication. How was it sent to us? 

[obscene]

1 hour ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I have not seen this question presented to me through our usual board communication. How was it sent to us? 

 

Looks like both Bill and I submitted tech desk requests. Mine is ticket tracking ID: JGS-TBX-T1EP if that helps.

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:22 PM, obscene said:

 

Looks like both Bill and I submitted tech desk requests. Mine is ticket tracking ID: JGS-TBX-T1EP if that helps.

 

I just sent an email to the rest of the board.  Usually Chris or Andrew Tech picks up the (safety related) tickets and come to the board and tac to discuss.  Maybe I missed it, but don't remember this one.  We'll get you an answer.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Rodger Coan-Burningham

[Bill Strong]

Bill Strong
Tracking ID:

R2T-DRJ-PTDD

Ticket number:

1347


Benjamin Fong

Tracking ID:

JGS-TBX-T1EP

Ticket number:

1340

[Bill Strong]

Since they are tech questions they are assigned to Ray.

[Chris Huggins]

On 5/6/2022 at 12:15 AM, Bill Strong said:

Count 4 now.

 

The board doesn't talk to me. I have given them all of the info. If they don't announce the addition of this in a new revision of the 2022 BCCR, I will ask again at the BOD meeting.

 

The board is supposed to communicate via the CEO.    You are supposed to communicate with us via the CEO.

 

Certainly the worst option would be to try and publicly indicate we are ignoring you… but here we are.

 

no emails from Dana or You on this matter in my CCES inbox.

 

 

Andrew and I pick up VPI related tickets, safety and build specific questions are picked up by Tech and only come to TAC if they need to escalate.

[MBMEngineering]

Has anyone heard back on their tech ticket regarding this system? Thanks. 

[obscene]

39 minutes ago, MBMEngineering said:

Has anyone heard back on their tech ticket regarding this system? Thanks. 

 

Not yet, but looks like it's moving forward now

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

I presented a preliminary look at a rule change to the board and TAC that would result in acceptance of this system.  Getting those comments on the proposal currently, not sure when that will all be complete.  The board is trying to get ready for the board meeting next week so it may be after that since this isn't on the docket. 

 

Chasing down the fire suppression system rabbit hole says we probably should remove the type of suppressant and capacity.  There are multiple systems out there that use different suppressants, each of which have different efficiencies at doing the job, and more new ones on the way.  AFFF foam is less effective than ABF foam which is less effective Novec which is less effective than Coldfire/Monnex, etc etc.  The more effective systems take less suppressant to do the job (but generally cost more), hence the comment on capacity.  What I proposed was stating we require systems to meet SFI 17.1, FIA Tech List 16, or FIA Tech List 52. Remove 3.9.1.2.  Add some verbiage to say you can't mix/match nozzles and tubing between the various systems.  Leave the rest of 3.9.1 in place.  I still have to explore expiration dates on the FIA Tech List 16 and 52, question posed on that. 

 

Anyone have any comments on this path forward before I finalize the proposal?  

[obscene]

Quick update: Ray got back to me confirming that the new system is good to go.

 

 

Reply by Ray Franck»16-May-2022 6:50pm

Benjamin
Sorry this has taken so long.
I have talked with Lifeline and have no worries this system will be approved and the July rule update should reflect that.

Ray Franck
ChampCar Tech Inspector
ChampCar Endurance Series
PO Box 2170, Angier, NC 27501

[Bill Strong]

The new system using ABF Foam is now in the July updated BCCR.

3.9.1.2. Minimum 5 LB or 2 Liter bottle capacity – ABF/AFFF/FE-36/NOVEC 1230 – Rechargeable systems are highly advised.

[chbright]

On 5/14/2022 at 12:29 PM, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I presented a preliminary look at a rule change to the board and TAC that would result in acceptance of this system.  Getting those comments on the proposal currently, not sure when that will all be complete.  The board is trying to get ready for the board meeting next week so it may be after that since this isn't on the docket. 

 

Chasing down the fire suppression system rabbit hole says we probably should remove the type of suppressant and capacity.  There are multiple systems out there that use different suppressants, each of which have different efficiencies at doing the job, and more new ones on the way.  AFFF foam is less effective than ABF foam which is less effective Novec which is less effective than Coldfire/Monnex, etc etc.  The more effective systems take less suppressant to do the job (but generally cost more), hence the comment on capacity.  What I proposed was stating we require systems to meet SFI 17.1, FIA Tech List 16, or FIA Tech List 52. Remove 3.9.1.2.  Add some verbiage to say you can't mix/match nozzles and tubing between the various systems.  Leave the rest of 3.9.1 in place.  I still have to explore expiration dates on the FIA Tech List 16 and 52, question posed on that. 

 

Anyone have any comments on this path forward before I finalize the proposal?  

 

Ok, so I am still waffling on which system to get and as you seam to know a thing or 2, Ill ask. Coldfire vs novec 1230. Is a 2lt coldfire enough for sedan vs a 5lb novec system. I love the way novec claims to work. My issue going to it outright is the fact as a gas, it dissipates, and how is that going to work in a moving car's engine bay or cabin with open side windows? So if it's pulled while the cars at speed am I asking for a big issue vs foam that has some stick to keep it knocked down and out. I know they make a novec powder combo but that's move than just getting 2 or more full systems and honestly more than 50% what the car and spares are worth.... 

 

Speedway has a 2L coldfire system I'm strongly considering now, but it's a tiny volume vs novec 1230 systems. The max is 2Ls vs a larger 4L foam system or novec in 5lb (and I am open to the 3kg or a 10lb novec system). And that 2L system is right in line with the 5lb or so novec in price so I'm open to that level vs AFFF.

 

 

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

31 minutes ago, chbright said:

 

Ok, so I am still waffling on which system to get and as you seam to know a thing or 2, Ill ask. Coldfire vs novec 1230. Is a 2lt coldfire enough for sedan vs a 5lb novec system. I love the way novec claims to work. My issue going to it outright is the fact as a gas, it dissipates, and how is that going to work in a moving car's engine bay or cabin with open side windows? So if it's pulled while the cars at speed am I asking for a big issue vs foam that has some stick to keep it knocked down and out. I know they make a novec powder combo but that's move than just getting 2 or more full systems and honestly more than 50% what the car and spares are worth.... 

 

Speedway has a 2L coldfire system I'm strongly considering now, but it's a tiny volume vs novec 1230 systems. The max is 2Ls vs a larger 4L foam system or novec in 5lb (and I am open to the 3kg or a 10lb novec system). And that 2L system is right in line with the 5lb or so novec in price so I'm open to that level vs AFFF.

 

Since you haven't bought yet, I would say call Brandon Marshall at Lifeline to discuss.  540-251-2724, I hope he doesn't mind me posting his name on here, but I think that's the best way to get the information you are looking for.  He is a good source to have this discussion, and I know you are looking at multiple suppliers but he is a good technical resource and they are a champcar sponsor.  He can give you a lot more background, but typically the more expensive the system is the smaller it can be and still work the same or work better, etc etc.  

Edited August 1, 2022 by Rodger Coan-Burningham

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

And just for full disclosure, I dropped the ball on getting the language in the latest bccr on this subject and didn't get it to Chris before he made the last revision.  We did make a slight change so some of these new systems can be used, but the complete change I mention above will have to wait until the next release.