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Driver stint length measurement/calculation


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I'm sure this has been covered before, but I couldn't come up with the correct search terms, so I here I am posting...

The rules are clear about when a driver stint starts, but how does ChampCar measure, record and/or calculate this moment? When does the stint end? What if it goes FCY or Code 35 during the driver's last lap? What is the margin of error?

Thank you!

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1 hour ago, Wheelman_99 said:

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I couldn't come up with the correct search terms, so I here I am posting...

The rules are clear about when a driver stint starts, but how does ChampCar measure, record and/or calculate this moment? When does the stint end? What if it goes FCY or Code 35 during the driver's last lap? What is the margin of error?

Thank you!

When the green drops stint #1 timer starts, timing & scoring tracks each car as part of their regular gig, they do expect to see a car pit by 2 hours, we do get the occasional staff inquiry if it looks as if we are going to go over, they do really watch, it can be really annoying if you need another lap......if its so close that a code 35 affects things, you may have grey area to work with but better be pitting that lap, there is very little to no error margin, if there is, it seems to be a decently kept secret.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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That first part is also covered in the rules and you otherwise only stated that they track the time, not how... Sorry if I sound trite, just trying to be precise. Clocks don't lie and margins of victory can be tight, so when that clock stops and starts can make the difference. I'm already fascinated by the fact that a car that starts further forward in the pack vs another car could possibly drive one lap further before pitting and still be legal.

ChampCar doesn't use the pit in and out loops AFAIK (If they did, we wouldn't need pit timers except as a crutch or habit), heck some tracks don't even have em. So... the only hit in pitlane is at start finish, which is before some teams pits and after others, so not only do we have up to 15 seconds to drive in pit lane before or after crossing the line, but we have the 4 plus minutes in our box on one side of the pit lane hit or the other. 

 

Thinking on it more, I see that a pitlane hit being more than 2:04:xx after the previous one (or time of Green flag (less after GF for a car pitted before SF)) being the red flag to take a look, with a long pit stop on one end or the other (depending on which end of pit road) being the only excuse for this to be okay.

The questions still remain exactly when does the stint end, margin of error, and their method of timing.

Thank you for all who contribute, I enjoy learning how things work, even the small details.

 

Edited by Wheelman_99
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3 hours ago, Wheelman_99 said:

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I couldn't come up with the correct search terms, so I here I am posting...

The rules are clear about when a driver stint starts, but how does ChampCar measure, record and/or calculate this moment? When does the stint end? What if it goes FCY or Code 35 during the driver's last lap? What is the margin of error?

Thank you!

I don't think it's been discussed on the forum! Congratulations for finding a new topic :)

 

I don't want to say that @Team Infiniti is wrong, but at events run by Chelsea (midwest), they start the 'stints' at the time when the race was officially listed to start, even if the green is 1-2 minutes either way. So an 8:30 start time at Road America means you have to have pitted by 10:30, even if the green dropped at 8:29 / 8:31. Check with the race director if you are going to be cutting it this close.

 

You are correct that the method of checking is not listed in the rules, and it doesn't need to be. If ChampCar determines that your driver was in for 2:02 (by any means) they can penalize you. Stint time is the time from race start until your driver gets to the pit in station, or time from pit out station to pit in station if you aren't the opening stint. Historically it would be hard to determine exactly when a driver left pit out or reached pit in, because there aren't timing loops at those exact locations. Today, things are different. With every car equipped with a flagtronics, timing and scoring can see exactly where (and when) a car is on track and determine within a few seconds how long a stint was.

 

They certainly have and continue to keep tabs on top teams, I was at a race some years back where someone from timing and scoring came down right near the end of a stint and said something to the effect of "we're watching, this is a friendly reminder that if you aren't in on time we will be penalizing you". Can't remember if this was when I was crewing for a different team or if it was my team. 

 

How would ChampCar deal with a long yellow on your in-lap? I don't know. Margin of error? Not sure. I think they would be justified in a zero tolerance policy, pushing a stint long can be a big advantage especially if it allows you to pit under the new unexpected yellow. If you don't want to get caught out, pit 1 lap sooner.

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This is a good question. We’ve been at races before where we missed out on the podium where the team in front went like 2:05 or so on the last stint to take the checker and we didn’t protest because we weren’t sure how it would be proven/checked (pre-flagtronics) and what the tolerance would be. 

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17 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

This is a good question. We’ve been at races before where we missed out on the podium where the team in front went like 2:05 or so on the last stint to take the checker and we didn’t protest because we weren’t sure how it would be proven/checked (pre-flagtronics) and what the tolerance would be. 

 

Time for a Lunch-N-Learn.

 

@Chris Huggins& @Rodger Coan-Burningham did exactly this at the Sunday Ozark in the SC300.   I assumed the out lap wasn't going to be counted when they did it.

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1 hour ago, Ben 595 said:

 

Time for a Lunch-N-Learn.

 

 

 

@Chris Huggins& @Rodger Coan-Burningham did exactly this at the Sunday Ozark in the SC300.   I assumed the out lap wasn't going to be counted when they did it.

You sure about that?  SC300 didnt even finish the race, and our final stop was within the 2 hour window by a good margin.

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1 hour ago, Ben 595 said:

 

Time for a Lunch-N-Learn.

 

 

 

@Chris Huggins& @Rodger Coan-Burningham did exactly this at the Sunday Ozark in the SC300.   I assumed the out lap wasn't going to be counted when they did it.

I don't think this is true.  They pitted about 7 times on Sunday.  Pretty sure one of them was with between an hour and an hour and a half left.

 

They did do a bunch of driver change only under yellow, so it wouldn't have shown up really.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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  2 hours is the rule, not 2 and a lap, not 2 and some grace.

  Again lots of misinformation and wrong procedures mentioned above.

  Control already knowes stint lengths but Flagtroics will also give that info.

  Alert drivers their stint is almost over ? That's an idea to go along with the tire pressure indicator, temperature sensor, and oil level amount teller that the Flagtroics guys have been working on.

  

  

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18 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

  2 hours is the rule, not 2 and a lap, not 2 and some grace.

  Again lots of misinformation and wrong procedures mentioned above.

  Control already knowes stint lengths but Flagtroics will also give that info.

  Alert drivers their stint is almost over ? That's an idea to go along with the tire pressure indicator, temperature sensor, and oil level amount teller that the Flagtroics guys have been working on.

  

  

No need to get saucy, it was just an idea. It would take nothing but software programming. I thought the 2hr rule was a safety thing? 
 

Do you know how Race Control calculates it?   That’s what the OP was asking.  

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We have been told that it starts when the scheduled start time happens, whether early or late.  Then as long as you cross the loop before the 2hr mark and pit on the same lap you are ok.  So go by at 1:58, but it is a 2:15s lap, you are considered good.  if you cross the loop at 2 hrs. and come in at 2rs 2:15mins, you are not.

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15 hours ago, petawawarace said:

No need to get saucy, it was just an idea. It would take nothing but software programming. I thought the 2hr rule was a safety thing? 
 

Do you know how Race Control calculates it?   That’s what the OP was asking.  

  Sorry man was actually trying to be funny.

  Yes I do know.  We always try to start on time and if close everything is calculated off the stated start time. If something delays the start, which doesn't happen often, the actual start time is used.  Different track layouts and timing loop locations have a determining factor. When the scoring loop on pit road is in the middle and you are on the pit in side stint time starts when crossing the pit loop going out. If you are on the pit out side it starts when crossing the track loop. Of course it evens out as the opposite effect happens with the exiting driver. If the timing loops are at the end of pit road it's just simpler but all the same out come. If a full course caution happens and that is the reason your team was a bit over no problem. Think you are gonna push it and your strategy is 2hrs and a lap or so, Expect a penalty and it is the SAME FOR EVERYONE.

   Again, sorry peta I kinda was being a azz..

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55 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

  Sorry man was actually trying to be funny.

  Yes I do know.  We always try to start on time and if close everything is calculated off the stated start time. If something delays the start, which doesn't happen often, the actual start time is used.  Different track layouts and timing loop locations have a determining factor. When the scoring loop on pit road is in the middle and you are on the pit in side stint time starts when crossing the pit loop going out. If you are on the pit out side it starts when crossing the track loop. Of course it evens out as the opposite effect happens with the exiting driver. If the timing loops are at the end of pit road it's just simpler but all the same out come. If a full course caution happens and that is the reason your team was a bit over no problem. Think you are gonna push it and your strategy is 2hrs and a lap or so, Expect a penalty and it is the SAME FOR EVERYONE.

   Again, sorry peta I kinda was being a azz..

All good.  Thanks for the explanation!

 

If just using the start/finish loop, a 2hr stint time would show up as a 2hr 5min total length regardless of which side you pit on.  But I guess you could compare the first or last lap to the normal laps and see that.  I think I just answered my own question. Lol

 

Are we getting rid of the egg timers once flagtronics goes mandatory?

Edited by petawawarace
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  I'm thinking the timers will stay around for a few events just in case but If the race director says chunkum we will. The timers are just for our and teams convince and have never been offical. Much to a few slick teams suprise that have tried to switch timers or alter them, only to be caught by timing and scoring. The look on some faces when confronted is priceless..

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On 5/19/2022 at 12:50 PM, Ben 595 said:

 

Time for a Lunch-N-Learn.

 

 

 

@Chris Huggins& @Rodger Coan-Burningham did exactly this at the Sunday Ozark in the SC300.   I assumed the out lap wasn't going to be counted when they did it.


Per Einsten’s time theory, we were going so fast our timer counted time different than anybody else in the race. Sorry, it’s just science man. 
 

Really, I’m not sure where this came from. We never came close to a two hour stint all weekend. We ran a pit strategy of cautions so we had multiple stops above the minimum. It was actually working Sunday, even with that I think we stopped 6 times (edit: 5 stops 6 stints) on Sunday. We were so far behind the leaders we took the last one just to split up the drive time. Then the fuel pump died with 30 min to go. 

Edited by Rodger Coan-Burningham
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We try and get as close to the 2hr mark as possible.  I've been told by Champcar that they MAY allow you a 1 lap grace period but it's not guaranteed.  I can tell you that they do watch those times, we have had occasions were officials will come over to our pit stall and give us the stink eye watching for when our car comes in.  Also, to make sure we stay on-time we always start and stop our drivers time based on when the car arrives into our pit stall.   Now, one thing that could possibly be taken advantage of is doing drivers swaps/full pit stops but not actually changing drivers or making sure a driver gets 1hr rest after driving before going back in the car (this is a bit of a grey area too because there is no specific driving time listed that states you must now rest for 1hr if you have driven X amount of time). 

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1 hour ago, Ronh911 said:

We try and get as close to the 2hr mark as possible.  I've been told by Champcar that they MAY allow you a 1 lap grace period but it's not guaranteed.  I can tell you that they do watch those times, we have had occasions were officials will come over to our pit stall and give us the stink eye watching for when our car comes in.  Also, to make sure we stay on-time we always start and stop our drivers time based on when the car arrives into our pit stall.   Now, one thing that could possibly be taken advantage of is doing drivers swaps/full pit stops but not actually changing drivers or making sure a driver gets 1hr rest after driving before going back in the car (this is a bit of a grey area too because there is no specific driving time listed that states you must now rest for 1hr if you have driven X amount of time). 

Actually there is. 
 

7.1. MAXIMUM DRIVING TIME
7.1.1. Within an Endurance Race, no driver shall drive for more than 2 hours consecutively and shall have, at a minimum, sixty (60) minutes rest between stints.

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2 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Actually there is. 
 

7.1. MAXIMUM DRIVING TIME
7.1.1. Within an Endurance Race, no driver shall drive for more than 2 hours consecutively and shall have, at a minimum, sixty (60) minutes rest between stints.

"...sixty (60) minutes rest between stints."  Stint length is not defined.  An example would be a driver starts a stint, the car dies 5 minutes into it and then the driver cycles into the teams 2nd car 10 minutes after he got out of the dead car.  Would he have to wait 1hr before he could legally drive the 2nd car?  Or, is it the mere fact that he was in a car regardless of the time spent driving it that precludes him from driving the 2nd car until after he waits 1hr? 

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1 minute ago, Ronh911 said:

"...sixty (60) minutes rest between stints."  Stint length is not defined.  An example would be a driver starts a stint, the car dies 5 minutes into it and then the driver cycles into the teams 2nd car 10 minutes after he got out of the dead car.  Would he have to wait 1hr before he could legally drive the 2nd car?  Or, is it the mere fact that he was in a car regardless of the time spent driving it that precludes him from driving the 2nd car until after he waits 1hr? 

Lol sorry, most of us don’t have to worry about multiple cars.  
 

I believe that the rule is there for safety to avoid driver fatigue. Skirting the rules by driving in multiple cars would go against that.  
 

Technically it doesn’t say anything about multiple cars.  That would mean it’s the driver.   Shouldn’t matter if they are driving the pacecar, they can’t exceed 2hrs, and must rest for an hour.   In your scenario I doubt anything would be said as the drive time is reasonable.  If a single driver hopped from one car to another and did the whole race there may be an issue. 

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23 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

We have been told that it starts when the scheduled start time happens, whether early or late.  Then as long as you cross the loop before the 2hr mark and pit on the same lap you are ok.  So go by at 1:58, but it is a 2:15s lap, you are considered good.  if you cross the loop at 2 hrs. and come in at 2rs 2:15mins, you are not.

 

I count driver stint from the time they give up the timer at pit out.  You can use the pit loop and just factor in whether your pit stall might be before or after the pit timing loop.  Either way is close enough.

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