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Look ma no lift pump


Grant
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We needed a surge tank on the NC because the stock pumps kept failing after the tank got run down to 1-2% capacity remaining, and the stock pump location is really not serviceable. I did not want to go with a lift pump because of the difficulty in re-filling the surge tank during normal refueling, how many lift pumps we've seen fail on other Champ cars (once they start sucking a lot of air), and the difficulty in servicing them.


So I went with one of these, contained inside the surge tank:

http://www.radiumauto.com/Venturi-Jet-Pump-Kit-P760.aspx

 

nc_surge_tank_internals.jpg.c08d7458848d74c44e91d041c110eda8.jpg

 

It draws fuel from the factory pump pickup location and pumps it into the surge tank. The video above is the surge tank's return fed into a Hunsaker. The pump moves more fluid when the tank level is higher or the outlet is lower, but when pumping up over the trunk lid with ~40% left in the tank it moved 0.57 gal / min.

 

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2 hours ago, Grant said:


We needed a surge tank on the NC because the stock pumps kept failing after the tank got run down to 1-2% capacity remaining, and the stock pump location is really not serviceable. I did not want to go with a lift pump because of the difficulty in re-filling the surge tank during normal refueling, how many lift pumps we've seen fail on other Champ cars (once they start sucking a lot of air), and the difficulty in servicing them.


So I went with one of these, contained inside the surge tank:

http://www.radiumauto.com/Venturi-Jet-Pump-Kit-P760.aspx

 

nc_surge_tank_internals.jpg.c08d7458848d74c44e91d041c110eda8.jpg

 

It draws fuel from the factory pump pickup location and pumps it into the surge tank. The video above is the surge tank's return fed into a Hunsaker. The pump moves more fluid when the tank level is higher or the outlet is lower, but when pumping up over the trunk lid with ~40% left in the tank it moved 0.57 gal / min.

 

I have always worried about what happens six hours into the race, we’ve had them overheat and return to normal operation after it didn’t matter anymore

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FWIW I have seen multiple lift pumps fail on fuel cell cars, and have never failed a stock basket setup used as a lift pump (leaving the factor pump module in the neon tank). Reason I think it because the factory module uses a jet pump to lift the fuel into the module basket, so the pump always has fuel until the tank is empty and the basket is empty. This happens with only .5 gal to go, so it doesn't run dry long if ever. 

 

On the car I am helping with a fuel cell, I plan on shoving an entire street car module with jet pump in the cell. Same idea, the jet pump then becomes the lift device for the tank vs the pump. 

 

That radium setup looks neat, need to get one for my Oldsmobile street car. Having fuel surge issues with it when on the gas. 

 

I assume that is immersion rates rubber hose. For people preproducing this there is a big difference between regular  soft\rubber fuel hose and immersion hose. The outside being treated keeps it from swelling and bursting....thus the over 20 dollar a foot price.  

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4 hours ago, Black Magic said:

I assume that is immersion rates rubber hose. For people preproducing this there is a big difference between regular  soft\rubber fuel hose and immersion hose. The outside being treated keeps it from swelling and bursting....thus the over 20 dollar a foot price.  

That's SAE J30R10 for those looking for a spec/search term

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Yup it's submersible hose.

 

6 hours ago, Ian said:

How does it perform in the event the surge tank is run dry?

 

Will the jet pump pull fuel if there's no fuel to pump/drive the siphon jet?

 

If the surge tank runs dry the jet pump stops working, but this should only happen if you're completely out of fuel. In our setup the surge tank will refill when refueling, because it's lower than a lot of the tank.

 

We actually need to add a Radium duckbill (http://www.radiumauto.com/Duckbill-Valve-P916.aspx) to prevent fuel from siphoning out of the surge tank back in to the main tank when the level is very low.

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6 hours ago, Grant said:

Yup it's submersible hose.

 

 

If the surge tank runs dry the jet pump stops working, but this should only happen if you're completely out of fuel. In our setup the surge tank will refill when refueling, because it's lower than a lot of the tank.

 

We actually need to add a Radium duckbill (http://www.radiumauto.com/Duckbill-Valve-P916.aspx) to prevent fuel from siphoning out of the surge tank back in to the main tank when the level is very low.

 

I'll be interested to see how testing goes.  We have to run dual lift pumps (saddle tank) so double the failure points.

 

I'd just be worried that as the tank runs dry it my get the surge low enough to stall, then lose suction and cause total engine shutdown with no restart.

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9 minutes ago, Ian said:

I'd just be worried that as the tank runs dry it my get the surge low enough to stall, then lose suction and cause total engine shutdown with no restart.

Well yes, but that's always the case when you run out of gas? Even going up over the trunk it flows 2.25x as much fuel as the motor needs.

It worked fine for us at Ozarks, and we added as much as 15 gallons at one point.

Edited by Grant
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I like the setup.  Are you running a hydramat in the tank also? 

 

With all the comments regarding lift pump failure I'm wondering now if I have a potential future issue with ours.  Currently running with one of these for lift (Facet) to the swirl pot and a Bosch FP200 for our engine feed.  Here's a rebranded Facet that sells for less.  Both are on vibration isolator mounts to reduce shock to the pumps and noise to the car.  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PYAW10I/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B00PYAW10I&pd_rd_w=eKHdq&content-id=amzn1.sym.3481f441-61ac-4028-9c1a-7f9ce8ec50c5&pf_rd_p=3481f441-61ac-4028-9c1a-7f9ce8ec50c5&pf_rd_r=0GRVCY604E0SBHH798SV&pd_rd_wg=VfSKc&pd_rd_r=2904ff44-5431-44a9-a922-7103ded9207f&s=automotive&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyR0NEQlQxNFJFWEpHJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzY4OTkxMzNRNlJMM00xTU9KTSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzg2OTc2MldKWlJYVk9KSkgzMiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2RldGFpbF90aGVtYXRpYyZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

We've had no issues for last 3 races so crossing my fingers this is going to give us some reliability.  

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On 7/9/2022 at 8:31 AM, Todd K said:

I like the setup.  Are you running a hydramat in the tank also? 

No, just an aluminum tube for a pickup where the stock pump pickup was. Hydramat can evidently fail if you get any diesel contamination in your gas, and we don't need it anyhow.

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Sort of along the lines of this subject, we lost an in tank pump at Ozark in the Lexus.  The car would still run on the surge tank pump that feeds the rail but just not run at speed.  We drove it into the pits and then into the trailer with the separate surge tank fuel rail pump only.  I assume it was siphoning through the dead pump in the tank up the line and down into the surge tank.  When I went to pull the pump this weekend there was about 10 gallons left in the tank so I ran the rail pump to pump most of the fuel out of the tank through the surge tank, maybe 1 or 2 gallons left.  Somehow there has to be a way to use this information.  I use a 10 psi cracking pressure check valve to give back pressure to the in-tank pump and a pressure sensor ahead of it to indicate when we are losing pressure from the tank.  The problem with that set up is if you ever run the tank dry it's a bitch to get it primed and going again, so last year I drilled a 1/16" (or maybe it was 3/32") hole in the center of the seat of the check valve to allow air to blow through but still give some back pressure.  I assume that is enough restriction to prevent full engine load while siphoning into the surge because prior to doing this it obviously wouldn't siphon at all and the car was dead if we lost the in tank pump.

 

Anyway, I just found it interesting if you have the system tight and the surge is a little below the tank it runs without a pump.

Edited by Rodger Coan-Burningham
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On 7/9/2022 at 5:49 PM, Hillar K said:

Our Facet lift pump gave up on Saturday. Seems that it was good for about 90 mins and then wasn’t able to keep up. Installed in 2018

We’ve been using the same Facet pump for 2 years now and we regularly run the tank dry.  Really happy with it(I still carry a spare though).

 

 

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On 7/8/2022 at 2:45 AM, Grant said:

Yup it's submersible hose.

 

 

If the surge tank runs dry the jet pump stops working, but this should only happen if you're completely out of fuel. In our setup the surge tank will refill when refueling, because it's lower than a lot of the tank.

 

We actually need to add a Radium duckbill (http://www.radiumauto.com/Duckbill-Valve-P916.aspx) to prevent fuel from siphoning out of the surge tank back in to the main tank when the level is very low.

The surge tank is lower, but is the line that feeds the surge tank for its entire run? The incoming fuel level would have to be higher than the entirety of the line to push fuel through it.

 

Seems like the fuel neck would be at least in most cases.

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