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Dear Champcar: Please Buy Some Scales!


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We've seen the financials. Scales aren't that expensive. You've got the capacity to carry them. Just buy a set!

 

I am tired of seeing this as an excuse against future rulemaking.

This thread is not a discussion about future rulemaking either.

 

Just buy a set of the proper tools.

You can start using them at your own discretion. Just like the rented dyno that showed up at a couple of races.

 

There's no good excuse. Buy a set of scales.

 

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So educate me on what the scales would show?

Is this regarding actual race weights?  There are no minimum race weights defined in the rules.  But I know that the "race" weights are used for car values.  So the outcome I see from weighing cars at the track is that the actual weights used currently will be found to be not real- most likely the actual weights will be lower than those used in the formula.  So if that's the reason behind wanting scales, then the outcome I see is that the formula will be reworked to account for more accurate weights.  But this should not, in anyway, change car values.  If it does, then many cars will have the values changed (raised) and that won't be a good thing.

 

But what do I know....

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16 hours ago, takjak2 said:

We've seen the financials. Scales aren't that expensive. You've got the capacity to carry them. Just buy a set!

 

I am tired of seeing this as an excuse against future rulemaking.

This thread is not a discussion about future rulemaking either.

 

Just buy a set of the proper tools.

You can start using them at your own discretion. Just like the rented dyno that showed up at a couple of races.

 

There's no good excuse. Buy a set of scales.

 

Why?  What are you trying to solve?  For that matter what is a race "weight" even defined as for our series?  Full fuel, with driver?  Coolsuit? 

 

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Data collection would be worth it in my opinion. 

 

Sure, nobody wants to change anything today, the series is perfect as is.  But what if, someday, there would be a motivation to re-balance the field or add a rule where weight might play a factor.  Now you need at least a season of data collection to be confident in the numbers before you can pull the trigger.  In the meantime, people start playing games with the weights to make sure their car doesn't get hurt by whatever the new rule is.  Start collecting data now so if you ever do need it, the numbers are available and discussions can be had using real world information instead of what someone might think the numbers will tell us.

 

Weigh the cars, there is nothing to hide since there isn't a rule about actual weights, what does it hurt to have this data?

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6 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

Data collection would be worth it in my opinion. 

 

Sure, nobody wants to change anything today, the series is perfect as is.  But what if, someday, there would be a motivation to re-balance the field or add a rule where weight might play a factor.  Now you need at least a season of data collection to be confident in the numbers before you can pull the trigger.  In the meantime, people start playing games with the weights to make sure their car doesn't get hurt by whatever the new rule is.  Start collecting data now so if you ever do need it, the numbers are available and discussions can be had using real world information instead of what someone might think the numbers will tell us.

 

Weigh the cars, there is nothing to hide since there isn't a rule about actual weights, what does it hurt to have this data?

Cars were weighed if you went thru tech at Daytona 2021.

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I don't get it?  

 

Why not have a poll for what oil people use?  Ya know, just in case!

 

What do you do with 3 front running cars that all weigh differently?  How would you normalize that data?

 

What if the lightest e30 is a backmarker?  What then?

 

In other words, weight alone doesn't tell you anything than that teams perspective on risk versus reward of cutting up their cars.

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28 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

I can see one thing that scales do, based on this thread...make people nervous :ph34r:

I would argue its useless as this is not a spec anything series, there has never had a bottom weight, wouldn't you have concerns if embarking on a Champ specific build that will have some pretty dramatic weight loss? 

 

We are undoubtedly not alone, anyone that has sweated between races to improve their car with weight reduction will be affected by those that seem unwilling to go there.

 

 

 

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Doesn't matter what the race weights are, they are not using it to alter the swap values for a while. Those are all but set in all but stone for the ones that people constantly question. The 401 point ecotec Miata, and 500 point swapped e30 are not changing even if they were 1700lb (they wish it was possible but it's not) or 2800lb (with an ac and an 8 track radio).

 

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I would disagree with my friends/teammates above but that's ok we don't always see it the same.  I like the idea of collecting data.  We may not ever do anything with it, or maybe we do.  What's it hurt to have data?  Sometimes you don't know what to do with it until you have it.  It may just go in a spreadsheet and take up space and never be used.  John just doesn't want me to know he has been lieing to me about his Lexus weight.

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13 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I don't get it?  

 

Why not have a poll for what oil people use?  Ya know, just in case!

 

What do you do with 3 front running cars that all weigh differently?  How would you normalize that data?

 

What if the lightest e30 is a backmarker?  What then?

 

In other words, weight alone doesn't tell you anything than that teams perspective on risk versus reward of cutting up their cars.

 

I don't get the fear of weighing your car?  What if the data tells us weight means nothing?  Maybe it's finally PROOF people need to focus on something other than the weights arbitrarily determined by someone for some reason. 

 

OR, what if, someone is able to use that data for any number of reasons!  What if we need to consider a weight based formula for tire compounds or sizes?  What if we need to use real world weights for swap formulas down the road (highly unlikely)? What if we use current car as-raced weights to help determine VPI of future cars?  What if someone has an oddball car with a big miss on the VPI and they use actual data in a petition to get it corrected?  What if we used a weight based formula for fuel capacity?  What if we use a weight based number to prove someone is running less than 60% of the original body?  What if someone just felt like another team was cheating because they are so much faster and it turns out they just did a better job prepping their car and it weighs 250# less than yours?

 

I'm sure there are good reasons to know the weight of a ton of cars in this series and someone smarter than me or looking at the future of the series and potential changes to rules/classes/baseline values/etc. could use actual data to prevent future bickering.

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20 hours ago, Hurljohn said:

Cars were weighed if you went thru tech at Daytona 2021.

 

As stated above, this year there were over 100 cars weighed at Daytona this year and last year.  This year the tech people were very keen to know how much our car weighed for whatever reason (curiosity maybe).  With all of the different variety of cars at this race i am sure that Champcar has a reasonable/ general understanding of the weights of most cars in the series.  Are there outliers, sure but the average car they have a reasonable idea on a weight.  

 

There is no reason for scales at every track to be used in either tech or impound unless the rules were changed.  

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54 minutes ago, smitham32803 said:

There is no reason for scales at every track to be used in either tech or impound unless the rules were changed.  

"Wow, they weigh 400 lbs more than we do, have the same engine and didn't take any engine mod points but pull us easily on every straight. I wonder..."

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1 hour ago, mender said:

"Wow, they weigh 400 lbs more than we do, have the same engine and didn't take any engine mod points but pull us easily on every straight. I wonder..."

Now there’s some good reasoning that doesn’t involve rule changing. 

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52 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

2 hours ago, mender said:

"Wow, they weigh 400 lbs more than we do, have the same engine and didn't take any engine mod points but pull us easily on every straight. I wonder..."

Now there’s some good reasoning that doesn’t involve rule changing. 

It may have to do with carrying more speed out of the corner. 

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4 hours ago, Originalsterm said:

 

I don't get the fear of weighing your car?  What if the data tells us weight means nothing?  Maybe it's finally PROOF people need to focus on something other than the weights arbitrarily determined by someone for some reason. 

 

OR, what if, someone is able to use that data for any number of reasons!  What if we need to consider a weight based formula for tire compounds or sizes?  What if we need to use real world weights for swap formulas down the road (highly unlikely)? What if we use current car as-raced weights to help determine VPI of future cars?  What if someone has an oddball car with a big miss on the VPI and they use actual data in a petition to get it corrected?  What if we used a weight based formula for fuel capacity?  What if we use a weight based number to prove someone is running less than 60% of the original body?  What if someone just felt like another team was cheating because they are so much faster and it turns out they just did a better job prepping their car and it weighs 250# less than yours?

 

I'm sure there are good reasons to know the weight of a ton of cars in this series and someone smarter than me or looking at the future of the series and potential changes to rules/classes/baseline values/etc. could use actual data to prevent future bickering.

I have no fear of weighing my car.  There is a picture in the build thread on this very forum with the weight.

 

The data that would be collected would result in a foundational shift in Champcar.  We don't control weight and never have.

 

My issue is that "what is the problem we are trying to solve"?  

 

This data would need to have some consistencies to make sure it was even usable in the future.  Full tank of fuel?  Driver?  Cool shirt cooler?  All of those can change the data.  Furthermore, what about finishing position and fast lap.  What good is a bunch of weights in a spreadsheet without the corresponding results?

 

If the finishing position, or potential of the car is not noted, what could you do with the data?

 

How do you normalize car weights between 2 teams?

 

In other words, why waste the effort?  Collecting data without a clear plan ahead of time can just lead to misinterpretation down the road.

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Why don't you just ask people what their cars weigh?

 

1994 Miata in champcar trim, no fuel, no driver - roughly 2100#

2002 Miata in SCCA ITS trim, no fuel no driver - roughly 2200#

CRG/DR sprint kart with IAME X30 motor in TAG-Senior - coming off the track (minimal fuel, with driver & gear) = 375+/- 2#

1972 Porsche 914 in street trim - roughly 2000#

2006 GMC K2500 as it is at the dump scales - roughly 7200#

 

Those are the ones from my fleet that I know off the top of my head.

 

Pretty sure you can gather some data right here on this forum.

 

But like others say - you have data.  What now?

 

Weighing cars is easy.  Knowing what to do with that weight is the trick.

 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I would disagree with my friends/teammates above but that's ok we don't always see it the same.  I like the idea of collecting data.  We may not ever do anything with it, or maybe we do.  What's it hurt to have data?  Sometimes you don't know what to do with it until you have it.  It may just go in a spreadsheet and take up space and never be used.  John just doesn't want me to know he has been lieing to me about his Lexus weight.

You know that I've been secretly adding weight to his car- he won't find it, but it's gotta be like 300 lbs.

 

Do you know how many BBs fit inside of tubing?  Neither does John.....

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19 minutes ago, chip said:

You know that I've been secretly adding weight to his car- he won't find it, but it's gotta be like 300 lbs.

 

Do you know how many BBs fit inside of tubing?  Neither does John.....

 

That finally explains why that car sounds like a big maraca when it runs the kerbs.....

 

The more you know.

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3 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I have no fear of weighing my car.  There is a picture in the build thread on this very forum with the weight.

 

The data that would be collected would result in a foundational shift in Champcar.  We don't control weight and never have.

 

My issue is that "what is the problem we are trying to solve"?  

 

This data would need to have some consistencies to make sure it was even usable in the future.  Full tank of fuel?  Driver?  Cool shirt cooler?  All of those can change the data.  Furthermore, what about finishing position and fast lap.  What good is a bunch of weights in a spreadsheet without the corresponding results?

 

If the finishing position, or potential of the car is not noted, what could you do with the data?

 

How do you normalize car weights between 2 teams?

 

In other words, why waste the effort?  Collecting data without a clear plan ahead of time can just lead to misinterpretation down the road.

 

Good points! Along those lines, why keep track of lap times?  Just count laps and watch who crosses first?  Why so much data?

 

Consistent data is important, I don't care what the criteria is (full tank vs empty vs 1/2 full, etc.) just pick something and stick to it.  As someone who looks at a ton of data, having several cars that are "the same" but weigh different is a great piece of info, tying it to finishing place doesn't tell us anything if they end up with a mechanical failure, but lap times could be useful to tie together.  Having a database of useful information doesn't hurt anyone, especially if we have a reason to look at numbers sometime in the future.  The good news then is that data is already available to have discussions about ANYTHING the series or it's members want to do or consider.  As a builder, seeing how much work I might have to put in to drop another 100# and seeing (with data) what other teams with a similiar car have done with that weight have done would tell me if it was worth the effort or if I just suck at driving.  Or, who knows, maybe weights isn't as important as tire compound...

5 hours ago, DEE DEE said:

Either does this forum.

 

Agreed

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