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Points for modified oem mounts on swap


Lackluster
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I just snagged another Neon with a bad engine. I’m going to put a Sebring 2.4 in and based on my measurements the oem intake be tight with the radiator even after I tilt the radiator forward. It’ll also likely damage my header. The tight clearance is ok as long as the engine doesn’t rock too much. I’m certain it will. There’s a company that sells blingy billet mounts with polyurethane that I could easily fit in the swap budget (You can buy a whole running Sebring for $500) for near a grand. On the now infamous K swap BMW they claimed a $1600 oil pan as necessary when the oem one fit. I just want to use $20 poly inserts in the oem mounts and a $60 solid bobble strut. This is the budget friendly ($80 total) solution that I’d think would be welcomed by a builders series. I don’t want a protest from someone that claims it’ll technically fit with unmodified oem mounts with an adapter (adapter is necessary and not part of my question). This is true but the additional weight and torque will make it flop around like a fish under the hood.  To the point… can I claim the solid bobble strut and poly inserts as necessary for the swap? I honestly and sincerely feel that they are.  
Kinda looking for the Neon experts opinions.  I’d love if Black Magic, Mopar 4 Life, Plum Crazy, and others would chime in. 
Thanks in advance,

Tyler

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1 hour ago, Lackluster said:

I just snagged another Neon with a bad engine. I’m going to put a Sebring 2.4 in and based on my measurements the oem intake be tight with the radiator even after I tilt the radiator forward. It’ll also likely damage my header. The tight clearance is ok as long as the engine doesn’t rock too much. I’m certain it will. There’s a company that sells blingy billet mounts with polyurethane that I could easily fit in the swap budget (You can buy a whole running Sebring for $500) for near a grand. On the now infamous K swap BMW they claimed a $1600 oil pan as necessary when the oem one fit. I just want to use $20 poly inserts in the oem mounts and a $60 solid bobble strut. This is the budget friendly ($80 total) solution that I’d think would be welcomed by a builders series. I don’t want a protest from someone that claims it’ll technically fit with unmodified oem mounts with an adapter (adapter is necessary and not part of my question). This is true but the additional weight and torque will make it flop around like a fish under the hood.  To the point… can I claim the solid bobble strut and poly inserts as necessary for the swap? I honestly and sincerely feel that they are.  
Kinda looking for the Neon experts opinions.  I’d love if Black Magic, Mopar 4 Life, Plum Crazy, and others would chime in. 
Thanks in advance,

Tyler

Most swapped cars use aftermarket engine mounts (arms and rubber/poly) or some combination of stock on one, aftermarket on the other to make the engine fit. Mount(s) are specifically listed on the swap form under "Parts needed to complete swap". For our swap we had to save $$ where possible so we used OE e30 rubber pads and welded the arms from 3/16" steel and claimed the steel price in our mount section. https://champcar.org/web/pdf/SwapForm.pdf

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Tyler, 

 

You are running right down the alley several of the neon teams have lobbied about, there is no true bolt on method to make this simple swap without reusing the stock 2.0 dohc intake. We were never allowed to reuse the 2.0 neon intake in the swap, however the neon VPI was dropped 25 points recently to bring it closer to other FWD turds of that Era and power, which would cover the cost of this (using the same throttle body and size as the swap engine, thus no points). 

 

95 to 00 Sebring 2.4, or 01 to 02 2.4 (after 02 crank trigger to ngc will make this a no go on neon ecu). The options I am showing are for 01 and 02 engines (much easier to find, look for a pt cruiser). Be aware of the bolt pattern diference on intake for 95-00 vs 01 to 02. You can redrill the earlier neon intake to late pattern, but the plastic newer intakes won't allow this to go on the older heads. 

 

If you want to save the 25 points you can run the pt cruiser intake and cut a hole in the hood. It is harder to see around for short drivers if your seating position is low. This made decent power, good torque and despite looking like it should cost power runs well.

 

The Sebring 01 and 02 intake has about the best chance of fitting and making decent power. The older cloud car 2.4 intake (95 to 00) is very small runner size. Not sure you want to spend that effort, maybe cut and welded it could be something.

 

You can run without a bobble strut (I do) and simply cut and alter your front mount to tilt the engine back. You can also move all the mounts back in the car slightly by welding in new nuts, the cv axles have enough plung to allow this. It will make pulling the trans with the k member in place very hard. 

 

I think it might be easier to relocate the Rad in front of the bulkhead, although not the most durable spot.

 

I have always modified stock mounts and cutting, welding and drilling new holes is free. I have run stock bushings filled with urethane, and now just repurposed metal from the rear chassis brace (under rear seat of 2 door car) to make solid mounts. 

 

Pics, first shows the solid plate welded into the front motor mount.

 

Second is my old car with zero point pt cruiser intake (was a pt cruiser engine, easiest accessories to fit into neon)

 

third is a 01 or 02 Sebring intake. You could move Rad to front side of bulkhead to make this fit (but a pain).

20220807_224902.jpg

NeonBM1.jpg

20190115_063201.jpg

Edited by Black Magic
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1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

 

I have always modified stock mounts and cutting, welding and drilling new holes is free. I have run stock bushings filled with urethane,

I was strongly considering this route as well. Can I claim the urethane resin as necessary for the swap mount or is it points?  That’s not something currently in the bccr.
 

I have 3 engines on the garage floor right now. An Ngc PT motor for the team Neon and a good 97 Stratus 2.4 that came with a parts engine that broke a timing belt for my personal build. 
 

The plan was to put a head gasket in the new car and use the 2.0. I fell victim to the usual “just needs an xxxx part” scam that’s old as time. The 2.0 is not usable without excessive expense so the 2.4 is going to happen.  If this were a B class build I’d be fine but I’m going to try F class with this car therefore, every point matters.  In other classes you get penalty laps, in F I’ll get punted to B with 500 point cars. 
 

Moving the radiator seems to be flirting with danger.  I don’t think I’ve reached that level of desperation yet. 
 

The idea of making it harder to service by moving the mounts is another idea I’m not in love with but would consider.

 

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Parts needed to complete swap".

My fear is someone will protest that it wasn’t absolutely necessary to modify them. I’m new here and while this could be considered a petty thing to protest, I want to be as diligent as possible to stay within the rules.

 

Thanks again,

Tyler

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56 minutes ago, Lackluster said:

was strongly considering this route as well. Can I claim the urethane resin as necessary for the swap mount or is it points?  That’s not something currently in the bccr.

 

JB weld is explicitly in the free item list. I think all other PU glues and pretty much any glue would be. 

 

Fill the drivers mount, go solid passenger and front mount. Easier life.

 

Save your time and $. Use car-part.com and buy a 01 or 02 120k mile engine for $700 and move on. 

 

Cut hole in hood, run pt intake. Spend points on accusump or if brave\dumb no accusump and a quaife. Expect 140 something wheel hp shifting at 5500 or 5700. Tune setup with springs, slotted mounts and run SDK (acr, some rt and sport) suspension as a start. Build a surge tank and use plastic tank, you will need evey drop. 

Edited by Black Magic
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36 minutes ago, Lackluster said:

The plan was to put a head gasket in the new car and use the 2.0. I fell victim to the usual “just needs an xxxx part” scam that’s old as time.

 

Only the 2.0 sohc is economically viable for endurance racing, the 2.0 dohc is harder to find not destroyed. You can run a cam with 2.0 and be under 300 points with more power, but you may regret it quickly and find the search for more dohc short blocks daunting.

 

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Ummmmm 4.5.3 specifically lists motor mounts as part of the swap, right along with the block, intake, etc.  I have to interpret this to say that if you're doing a swap you use an OE mount, either from your new motor or from the original motor.  If it doesn't then I am at a loss for what 4.5.3 means.

 

4.3.2 lists them at 10 points each. 

 

So I do think it would be a winnable protest to say "look, it says that swapping the mounts is part of the motor swap.  Non stock mounts have a fixed value, you had two choices of OE mounts to use, you have a non-OE mount, that's 10 points". 

 

The fact that it is only an $80 item doesn't matter.  My "free" ECU is a few thousand dollars by the time I got it installed and tuned......

 

The fact that it is a necessary mod to swap engines has nothing to do with why you chose to change it.  You still changed it.

 

Once again, no clear path on an allowed mod makes a change that is specifically called out as a fixed point item, can you do it or not?  To quote a different rule book "no permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function".

 

Otherwise call it driver comfort and you can do what ever you want.

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1 hour ago, MMiskoe said:

Ummmmm 4.5.3 specifically lists motor mounts as part of the swap, right along with the block, intake, etc.  I have to interpret this to say that if you're doing a swap you use an OE mount, either from your new motor or from the original motor.  If it doesn't then I am at a loss for what 4.5.3 means.

 

4.3.2 lists them at 10 points each. 

 

So I do think it would be a winnable protest to say "look, it says that swapping the mounts is part of the motor swap.  Non stock mounts have a fixed value, you had two choices of OE mounts to use, you have a non-OE mount, that's 10 points". 

 

The fact that it is only an $80 item doesn't matter.  My "free" ECU is a few thousand dollars by the time I got it installed and tuned......

 

The fact that it is a necessary mod to swap engines has nothing to do with why you chose to change it.  You still changed it.

 

Once again, no clear path on an allowed mod makes a change that is specifically called out as a fixed point item, can you do it or not?  To quote a different rule book "no permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function".

 

Otherwise call it driver comfort and you can do what ever you want.

Look at the swap sheet:

https://champcar.org/web/pdf/SwapForm.pdf

"Engine Mount(s)" are listed above "Transmission Adapter" in the section for "Parts needed to complete swap". The column next to it is "Cost" which means that these items, if needed to complete the swap, would be assessed within the $2500 limit on swap cost and wouldn't be added to the point total.

 

Two exceptions are specifically listed in the rulebook:

4.5.3.1. Any OE exhaust manifold from a vehicle on the VPI List can be used on a swapped engine for zero (0) points. Aftermarket headers will be 25-points on all vehicles regardless of fitment issues.

4.5.3.2. The intake manifold used in the swap must be the OE or stock intake manifold that came from the engine you are swapping into your vehicle. If you need to swap to a different intake manifold from what engine is going into the car then it will be 25 points.

 

These two parts mean "if you need to use some alternately configured intake or exhaust to 'complete the swap', you will pay the point value for those items."

Engine mounts aren't among these two exceptions.

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FWIW hopefully someday the series drops all of the durability for points items and centers its efforts on properly quantifying laptime performance adders with points. 

 

Finally put to bed the "if that team is allowed to bolt mounts in the car that keeps the engine between the frame rails, they will run away with the series" mentality. Unless we really think teams are running around at the ideal and maximum engine retention laptime....

 

Lackluster jb weld or fill you mounts with other portables on the drivers side, and either fill or modifying and solid mount your passenger and front mount. If front mount is really stiff toss the bobble strut. 

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So a couple of comments here.

 

Where does it say that the swap sheet trumps the BCCR?  All that the BCCR notes is that the swap calculator is to be used to confirm "Value".  It doesn't say that either the swap sheet or calculator supersede what is in the BCCR.

 

The swap calculator does the math to determine points based on the HP change from one motor to another.  No where are "other parts" included in this calculator.

 

The Swap sheet appears to determine that the COST of the swap doesn't exceed $2500.  Nowhere does the swap sheet note points.   It does nothing to call out ancilary parts that are required for the swap - manifolds, k-members etc.   So are other things like oil pans and mulitplate clutches free because they are part of the swap or are they points?

 

Swap sheet, calculator and BCCR all clearly say that the Stock parts included in the swap are long block, manifolds, engine mounts, starter, ECU, wiring.  Now you can exclude wiring and ECU because those are noted as being free in other areas.  But for the first 4 items, it is indicating that the swap includes swapping those parts.  Mounts included.  Pretty sure I can't use an aftermarket intake manifold because I swapped the motor.  Or can I? 

 

If I want to change mounts when I do the swap, then hell, I've got a swap in my car, one Miata motor another, but I think that transmission cooler that I would like to add is part of the swap.....

 

Or the cams

 

Or all my aero?  yeah, I had to do that because I swapped the motor......

 

 

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18 hours ago, Black Magic said:

FWIW hopefully someday the series drops all of the durability for points items and centers its efforts on properly quantifying laptime performance adders with points. 

But that would be logical! I can only imagine the uproar if the TPI was made up of:

1. Chassis points.

2. Power to weight points.

3. Fuel to weight points.

4. Tire to weight points.

5. Aero to weight points.

 

Make your choices according to what you think will be the best combination and where to spend your 500 points, show up and see if you're smarter than the other builders. 

 

"Oh, that wouldn't work, it would be too fair, and there wouldn't be any variety out there! 80% of the field would consist of maybe two or three cars, and that would be - well, the same as it is now!" :) 

 

P.S. "And they would have to weigh the cars! Oh, the disclosure!"

Edited by mender
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27 minutes ago, mender said:

But that would be logical! I can only imagine the uproar if the TPI was made up of:

1. Chassis points.

2. Power to weight points.

3. Fuel to weight points.

4. Tire to weight points.

5. Aero to weight points.

 

Make your choices according to what you think will be the best combination and where to spend your 500 points, show up and see if you're smarter than the other builders. 

 

"Oh, that wouldn't work, it would be too fair, and there wouldn't be any variety out there! 80% of the field would consist of maybe two or three cars, and that would be - well, the same as it is now!" :) 

 

P.S. "And they would have to weigh the cars! Oh, the disclosure!"

The question is not whether that would be fair, but what would be the consequences for completely up ending the rulebook here 

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

The question is not whether that would be fair, but what would be the consequences for completely up ending the rulebook here 

A couple of years of adjustments for sure.

 

Just agreeing with Black Magic that using performance parameters to rate cars would make a lot of sense and likely result in a smaller but more understandable rulebook.

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16 hours ago, MMiskoe said:

  Now you can exclude wiring and ECU because those are noted as being free in other areas.  But for the first 4 items, it is indicating that the swap includes swapping those parts. 

 

 

These cannot be excluded from the swap price of $2500, they just don't impact points

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8 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

These cannot be excluded from the swap price of $2500, they just don't impact points

OK.  So you put in the Motec system for no points, then do a swap. 

 

My bad on the intake manifold example because it does have a specific restriction within the motor swap portion of the rule.

 

So by the logic that there is no specific call out for motor mounts, that means they are points free with the swap as long as you stay under the $2500?  On that same logic, the long block is noted as part of the swap, but doesn't have a specific call out if you change it it.  So does that mean it is a points free item as long as my changes are less than $2500 total?  Cool.  Guess that spare motor with aftermarket, .040" oversized pistons is good to go in.

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Regarding the motor mounts. Let's CAREFULLY read 4.5.3 shall we (emphasis mine)?

 

4.5.3 - Engine swaps include stock long block, OE stock exhaust manifolds, stock induction system, motor mounts, wiring, and transmission adapters.

 

Based on that rule structure, when the rule wants something to be stock, it says stock. If the intent of the rule was for "stock" motor mounts to be required as part of the swap, the rule would have said "stock motor mounts" (which would beg the question "stock to the car or stock to the engine" but fortunately we don't have to go there... until we get to cost - see below).

 

Anyway, the rule just says "motor mounts" - not "stock motor mounts". It also just says "wiring" and "transmission adapters" (no "stock" modifier). I think we can all agree the wiring and transmission adapters are necessarily going to be customized in some way shape or form specific to the swap.

 

Based on the above, my read of 4.5.3 is that the swap points spit out by the calculator include any type, style or combination of motor mounts

 

The limitations on the three "non-stock" items listed in 4.5.3 only kick in on the cost side of the swap rules. If you're doing a swap that's common in the aftermarket and some company makes $1000 swap mounts that you'd like to use, you'll have to account for that in your swap cost. If you make your own rigid mounts from some plate and tubing - good on you - include that material cost in the swap cost.

 

A couple more hypotheticals:

 

If you use rubber mounts original to the car with brackets to connect them to the engine, I'd say you get the rubber mounts for free (because they are part of the original car) and the cost of the brackets get included in the swap cost (if homemade = cost of materials, if aftermarket = actual cost).

 

On the other hand if you use rubber mounts original to the engine and connect them with brackets to the car, everything goes into the swap cost.

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Well, I need to fall on my sword here, tech desk has a note about fabricated motor mounts as part of a swap.  I should have known better than debate this crap on the forum.

 

2020-02-27 - Fabricated Engine Swap Parts

Q.
as per Rule 4.5.3:
"Engine swaps include stock long block, stock exhaust manifolds, stock induction system, motor mounts, starter, ECU, wiring, and transmission adapters."

If one were to fabricate the engine mounts and transmission adapter as opposed to buying these items off the shelf, what would be the equivalent dollar value associated with each? Would it simply be the cost of the raw materials required?
 

A.
Yes, it would be the cost of the material. Swap cost has been increased to a $2500.00 allowance.

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